Morrissey Central "HOLD ON, I’M CARMEN" (January 1, 2025)

Carmen Vandenberg working very hard at rehearsals for the New Year's Eve show at the Hollywood Palladium.
Photographs by Rudolpho.

HOLD ON, I'M CARMEN - MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY - MORRISSEY CENTRAL - HOLD ON, I'M CARMEN

MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY on MORRISSEY CENTRAL

www.morrisseycentral.com

 

[Ryan]

No, he did not play that! But if he did, I would have another thing to repetitively complain about and that would be awesome!
I think it starts at 3:10

lol, and he didn’t even play it live again. He must know it sucks but just won’t let the message go.

 

[Redacted]

lol, and he didn’t even play it live again. He must know it sucks but just won’t let the message go.

It really is a horrible song based on a paranoid conspiracy theory and its outdated. He proved who he is when he made that big deal about having Throwing My Arms Around Paris re released. He tries to make money off terrorist attacks, real or perceived.

 

[Phranc & Open]

I bet, he thinks, it looks good on the dancefloor.

 

[Simplysmiths]

Alain was still considered irreplaceable at the time. From Moz's True-To-You Q&A 2006...

"Q7: HOW HAS JESSE TOBIAS AFFECTED THE NEW ALBUM? Darragh, Dublin
-- hello Darragh
If you hear the new album you will notice a marked difference in sound, principally due to both Michael Farrell and to Jesse. Personally and musically, Jesse has made a big impact - You Have Killed Me, The Youngest Was The Most Loved, In The Future When All's Well, I Just Want To See The Boy Happy....these songs, especially, fully release the hounds. There are no Boz songs on this album, but strangely, it is the album on which Boz has been most involved and had such a massive input. Boz is 24-hour non-stop, and if impetus lulls, Boz steers everyone back on track.
If it seems to some people that Jesse has replaced Alain, I would like to say that this isn't true. There is no replacing and there is nothing but harmony amongst all the players. I understand that there are always poisonous assumptions on the SoLow site, but that's all just crap."

That’s Morrissey opinion. The evidence that Alain was shat on is there to see , even Alain has come out and said so because Alain dared to question the mentality of getting rid of good people ie Gaz

 

[Roman Holiday]

Once again, I really appreciate Alain's and Darrin's matter-of-fact and reserved approach to Morrissey. At the end of the day, the fans remember the two departures and Morrissey's autobiographical irritations, that Alain wanted to be more or less equal. Since Darrin has, so far, answered questions here as well as he could, but has remained stubbornly silent about the re-recordings, I have to assume that Alain's and Gustavo's compositional contributions may have been replaced after all. Some of them could have been Tobias', couldn't they? Since polite silence has almost always prevailed so far regarding the second exit and Alain wants to get his solo career off to a flying start, the deletion of his (presumably) final contributions for Morrisey would certainly not be conducive. What do you think?

My guess: the fact that he says the entire album was "re-recorded" means that Notre-Dame was re-worked with a different composer. Same beat, same vocal lines, but new music (minimalist industrial). I suspect the album, whatever it is called now, will feature zero to precious few tracks credited to Whyte or Manzur. Is this revenge for them leaving? I wouldn't put it past him, but it doesn't bother me. Spitefulness is a forgivable trait.

Doesn't Alain Whyte have some random non-Morrissey credits including a Rihanna song? He probably makes enough in royalties to pay the bills for a comfortable life. I imagine his pub tours with the other ex-Morrissey bandmates is a labor of love. His voice is average, but I like it better than Johnny Marr's. I think the aesthetic of the Alain Whyte Project is very tasteful: middle-aged men aging gracefully and rustically, not trying to be flashy. In the pictures I've seen, it's cuffed denims, corduroy jackets, and flat caps. Gary Day in particular has a great weathered face with the thick glasses. No skinny jeans and ugly trainers, thank God. There were some b&w photos of them (maybe dneuer's) that had way more of a drab, classic Smiths look than Morrissey's current outfit.

 

[Simplysmiths]

this is not the reason that Alain left in 2004.

No it isn’t. He left because he challenged Morrissey about letting good people go ie Gaz. Alain is quoted as saying that he left because of why Johnny left.

 

[Thewlis]

No it isn’t. He left because he challenged Morrissey about letting good people go ie Gaz. Alain is quoted as saying that he left because of why Johnny left.

Gary left 10 years earlier.
Alain has never clearly stated why he left/had to leave.

Exhaustion/illness was given as the reason for his sudden absence, but we can safely assume that there was more going on behind the scens.

 

[Phranc & Open]

@Roman Holiday the producer still seems to be Joe C. Anyway, good observations.

 

[Famous when dead]

I attended several of the gigs where there were veiled comments at Alain. It was difficult to tell whether they were tongue-in-cheek or otherwise (eg: being fined for how much they talked on stage). Despite some of the older guard asserting NDAs, there is still no evidence for that. Most band members have talked about some aspects of Morrissey's 'inner workings' at times (with some then melting down like Spencer - later retracted). I think musicians as a 'rule' don't tend to talk about whether other musicians/singers are any 'good' or intimate other difficulties as it is such a subjective topic, they'd probably never work again if they went ham with their views on each other or Morrissey. Boz and Alain have clearly indicated they have a post-leaving relationship with him and they both continue to post reminiscing posts and 'happy memory' posts and that's probably the best indicator of the state of affairs rather than guessing about invisible contract stipulations.
Regards,
FWD.

 

[gordyboy9]

Alain doesn’t need Morrisseys permission to perform any song live.

then why did he send a lawyers letter,have you read autobiography.

 

[Musician]

My guess: the fact that he says the entire album was "re-recorded" means that Notre-Dame was re-worked with a different composer. Same beat, same vocal lines, but new music (minimalist industrial). I suspect the album, whatever it is called now, will feature zero to precious few tracks credited to Whyte or Manzur. Is this revenge for them leaving? I wouldn't put it past him, but it doesn't bother me. Spitefulness is a forgivable trait.

Doesn't Alain Whyte have some random non-Morrissey credits including a Rihanna song? He probably makes enough in royalties to pay the bills for a comfortable life. I imagine his pub tours with the other ex-Morrissey bandmates is a labor of love. His voice is average, but I like it better than Johnny Marr's. I think the aesthetic of the Alain Whyte Project is very tasteful: middle-aged men aging gracefully and rustically, not trying to be flashy. In the pictures I've seen, it's cuffed denims, corduroy jackets, and flat caps. Gary Day in particular has a great weathered face with the thick glasses. No skinny jeans and ugly trainers, thank God. There were some b&w photos of them (maybe dneuer's) that had way more of a drab, classic Smiths look than Morrissey's current outfit.

Ha ha, you clearly know nothing about music. Which is fine. Though the recording of Notre Dame is just heard as background music, it's pretty audible and if you compare it to the live versions, it's the same song. There is no such thing as "same beat, same vocal line but new music". You probably mean new production, but that does not affect the songwriting credit (legal and non-legal sense).

 

[Roman Holiday]

Ha ha, you clearly know nothing about music. Which is fine. Though the recording of Notre Dame is just heard as background music, it's pretty audible and if you compare it to the live versions, it's the same song. There is no such thing as "same beat, same vocal line but new music". You probably mean new production, but that does not affect the songwriting credit (legal and non-legal sense).

Hopefully I know enough about music to know that you can retain a song's drum track and put new music over it. It's like those 12" dance remixes from the 80s, where everything melodic fades out except for the drums, and then the angular, car-crash bursts of "New Jack Swing" atmospherics take over. That's what the post-show Notre-Dame sounds like to me, with the vocals retained. I admit it could just be a lousy capture; I really hope it is.

 

[Multi]

No it isn’t. He left because he challenged Morrissey about letting good people go ie Gaz. Alain is quoted as saying that he left because of why Johnny left.

this is also incorrect.

 

[The Wild Turkey]

Though not as ramshackle a sound as the Dolls, he seems to really like them. Carmen is definitely one of the more interesting guitarists he’s ever had. Can’t wait to hear her contributions to any new recordings.

It kinda ain't surprisin' that after
Moz realized what kind of band
he had with Camila and Carmen,
that he would want to go back
and record with'em.
Let's hope it comes out some time.

 

[The Wild Turkey]

Charming photos!

Carmen Feel The Noize

 

[Jamie]

No it isn’t. He left because he challenged Morrissey about letting good people go ie Gaz. Alain is quoted as saying that he left because of why Johnny left.

This is very confusingly worded. I'm not aware that Alain ever compared his leaving to Johnny, though I'm happy to be proven otherwise. Johnny announced his departure to the press, outright. Alain - or, for that matter, Morrissey - never said anything publicly before the mentions in Autobiography. Which, frankly, given his impulses to embellish a good story, should be taken with a large salt lick. For instance, he claimed that Alain had legally asked to have his face put on the cover of YATQ whereas I'm inclined to envision the reality being akin to a request to have a larger font size credit - e.g., Songs by Morrissey & Alain Whyte (with an asterisk or some such for the Boz/Gaz co-writes). Given how the bulk of that comeback was on the shoulders of Alain's material - again, all four singles were his co-write and ultimately all became UK top 10s - it would not be the most unreasonable ask after years of carrying the bulk of the songwriting duties.

Also, Gary did not leave until after the completion of the Ringleader tours which Alain was not asked to participate in. At the time, he had been working hard to launch Red Lightning. Alain also submitted the songs for Years of Refusal circa 2007 after Gary had been replaced by Solomon. The long hiatus between then and his return to touring in 2021 was apparently prompted by being barred from participating in the sessions for YOR as he had on Ringleader. Allegedly (apocryphally?) Boz was tasked with dismissing him in the recording studio parking lot.

There's a lot we'll likely never know. For their own reasons they've both decided to share what they're willing to share (M through his book, Alain through podcast interviews). For that matter, I don't believe it's ever been clarified if M ever reached out for new songs in the post-YOR era or if they truly cut ties for several years. I always got the impression that they had both arrived at the conclusion, mutually if separately, to carry on in their own lanes.

 

[trans]

i assumed the replacement is just a way to pay the people who are in the band now with writing credits as well as the idea that you might play the songs you yourself wrote with more connection passion than something someone else wrote making for a better live show. i mean if they eventually put out the original version it would be a while before the new people got any writing credits or paychecks from them. i myself am very interested in hearing what carmen is gonna bring to the sound since shes rootd in the blues. i try to imagine a morrissey blues type song and im intrigued as it would seem like a new kinda american sound even if an old one. i think it could sound pretty moody and chill. could be anything really. maybe theyll go in a doors direction since hes been into the sixties kick in the recent past. a morrissey version of one in five would be cool

 

[Multi]

Allegedly (apocryphally?) Boz was tasked with dismissing him in the recording studio parking lot.

whether true or not I cannot say since I was not there, but this is what was reported to have happened on here when (if) it actually happened.

 

[SuedeMoz]

This is very confusingly worded. I'm not aware that Alain ever compared his leaving to Johnny, though I'm happy to be proven otherwise. Johnny announced his departure to the press, outright. Alain - or, for that matter, Morrissey - never said anything publicly before the mentions in Autobiography. Which, frankly, given his impulses to embellish a good story, should be taken with a large salt lick. For instance, he claimed that Alain had legally asked to have his face put on the cover of YATQ whereas I'm inclined to envision the reality being akin to a request to have a larger font size credit - e.g., Songs by Morrissey & Alain Whyte (with an asterisk or some such for the Boz/Gaz co-writes). Given how the bulk of that comeback was on the shoulders of Alain's material - again, all four singles were his co-write and ultimately all became UK top 10s - it would not be the most unreasonable ask after years of carrying the bulk of the songwriting duties.

Also, Gary did not leave until after the completion of the Ringleader tours which Alain was not asked to participate in. At the time, he had been working hard to launch Red Lightning. Alain also submitted the songs for Years of Refusal circa 2007 after Gary had been replaced by Solomon. The long hiatus between then and his return to touring in 2021 was apparently prompted by being barred from participating in the sessions for YOR as he had on Ringleader. Allegedly (apocryphally?) Boz was tasked with dismissing him in the recording studio parking lot.

There's a lot we'll likely never know. For their own reasons they've both decided to share what they're willing to share (M through his book, Alain through podcast interviews). For that matter, I don't believe it's ever been clarified if M ever reached out for new songs in the post-YOR era or if they truly cut ties for several years. I always got the impression that they had both arrived at the conclusion, mutually if separately, to carry on in their own lanes.

I have a hard time believing that Alain asked for what he did in the exact way Morrissey states in Autobiography. But if Alain asked for more than he was getting - good on him! Any reason he shouldn't? Have you ever asked for a raise or promotion from your employer? Let's not forget that Alain had just lived through the first of Morrissey's wilderness years after Maladjusted. No doubt Morrissey was much more financially set than Alain to live through that.

 

[April Snow]

i assumed the replacement is just a way to pay the people who are in the band now with writing credits as well as the idea that you might play the songs you yourself wrote with more connection passion than something someone else wrote making for a better live show. i mean if they eventually put out the original version it would be a while before the new people got any writing credits or paychecks from them. i myself am very interested in hearing what carmen is gonna bring to the sound since shes rootd in the blues. i try to imagine a morrissey blues type song and im intrigued as it would seem like a new kinda american sound even if an old one. i think it could sound pretty moody and chill. could be anything really. maybe theyll go in a doors direction since hes been into the sixties kick in the recent past. a morrissey version of one in five would be cool

Oh that would be so cool. Would love it if he tried something new like that. His vocals are so strong and good, just no auto tune please (Rebels track sounds horrible because of it).

Morrissey is such a great singer - a good jazz album would go down pretty good with me too - Sinatra Style - jazz is such a beloved genre with audiophiles too.
Mozz in tux doing jazz - Chet Baker style trumpet - old school jazz - yes please