Morrissey Central "HOLD ON, I’M CARMEN" (January 1, 2025)

Carmen Vandenberg working very hard at rehearsals for the New Year's Eve show at the Hollywood Palladium.
Photographs by Rudolpho.

HOLD ON, I'M CARMEN - MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY - MORRISSEY CENTRAL - HOLD ON, I'M CARMEN

MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY on MORRISSEY CENTRAL

www.morrisseycentral.com

 

[Musician]

Seems like this is just a sarcastic joke. Perhaps she is the only smoker in the group that therefore takes smoking breaks? I don’t think she would be in the band if M didn’t like her playing.

So let me start by stating some things so I won't be automatically labelled as a "hater" (not that I care too much). Morrissey as a singer, lyricist and icon is second to none, when he is good. He is iconic and has a lyrical output and charisma that cannot be compared to anyone.
However, he is not a musician, and never had the ability to pick good musicians. Looking back it seems when he did have, they were in his band by accident or because some of the band members' knew someone and so on. As much as everyone is nostalgic about the Lads, in 1991 they were beyond horrible live. I think it's a magical constellation that on "Vauxhall" he had real pro musicians backing his majestic songs. But then again around 2000, then since Jesse joined, then the last few line-ups....many commented already how Marr's band pisses all over Morrissey's. Morrissey just doesn't have the ability, that's all so he sticks to people who silently sign NDAs, wear stupid T-shirts or clothes when he orders them and in return they get paid plus calls them "the bestest best band I ever had".

 

[Amy]

I guess the haters will see this as “a thinly veiled dig at her abilities” …or something.

I saw it as one of those things that Moz suggests for a laugh, and you go along with it because why not, it's only a photo? He laughs, and you laugh, and he laughs... and then the next day you get fired with no idea why. Or made to wear a loincloth, or mocked or made sport of in some other way.

In other words - the new musicians walk on eggshells, and we should all know that by now. That's why I don't think it's really fair to judge the band harshly, practiced or no. These people are still pretty new, they are doing what has been asked of them (in what must be a fairly ramshackle situation) - and ultimately they have their own bands and side projects to return to if things get too rough. There has never been one truly 'standout' solo musician and that is entirely intentional - if 'Johnny Mk 2' drifted down from heaven and joined the band tomorrow, he would be sacked after one gig for taking away the limelight.

 

[The Wild Turkey]

The new band has a fun energy
about them.
Jesse did a heck of a job findin'
these folks.
Yeah, guess Moz did a good job too.

 

[Thewlis]

I saw it as one of those things that Moz suggests for a laugh, and you go along with it because why not, it's only a photo? He laughs, and you laugh, and he laughs... and then the next day you get fired with no idea why. Or made to wear a loincloth, or mocked or made sport of in some other way.

In other words - the new musicians walk on eggshells, and we should all know that by now. That's why I don't think it's really fair to judge the band harshly, practiced or no. These people are still pretty new, they are doing what has been asked of them (in what must be a fairly ramshackle situation) - and ultimately they have their own bands and side projects to return to if things get too rough. There has never been one truly 'standout' solo musician and that is entirely intentional - if 'Johnny Mk 2' drifted down from heaven and joined the band tomorrow, he would be sacked after one gig for taking away the limelight.

Very true. The reason Alain was replaced the first time was because he asked for too much of the limelight, as Morrissey himself said in Autobiography.

Now he does have much higher profile musicians, so it must be quite hard to keep them happy and on board, especially when there are no dates or releases to look forward to.

The reason that they choose to stick around could be a sign that sonething exciting is coming up soon.

 

[Musician]

Very true. The reason Alain was replaced the first time was because he asked for too much of the limelight, as Morrissey himself said in Autobiography.

Now he does have much higher profile musicians, so it must be quite hard to keep them happy and on board, especially when there are no dates or releases to look forward to.

The reason that they choose to stick around could be a sign that sonething exciting is coming up soon.

Higher profile musicians...???? Oh sure

 

[Amy]

Very true. The reason Alain was replaced the first time was because he asked for too much of the limelight, as Morrissey himself said in Autobiography.

Now he does have much higher profile musicians, so it must be quite hard to keep them happy and on board, especially when there are no dates or releases to look forward to.

The reason that they choose to stick around could be a sign that sonething exciting is coming up soon.

The depiction in Autobio did Alain horribly dirty. I don't trust anything M says about Alain trying to 'grab the crown', just as I don't believe his fanciful story about Joe Moss trying to replace him in The Smiths. He has repeated the same paranoid accusations many times, only the names change. I don't think we will ever know the full story there but as we've seen in recent months, there is often an embarrassing gulf between M's perception and the reality.

I hope you are right about the new musicians.

 

[Thewlis]

Higher profile musicians...???? Oh sure

Yes, simple facts. When Morrissey recruited ‘the lads’ they were really not going anywhere. He literally found them on the streets in London and suddenly they were playing Wembley and other huge shows. They were mocked by the British press at the time, but Morrissey sticked to them and they improved really quickly and became his best ever band.

Now he is playing with very seasoned musicians, who have done huge tours with the likes of Smashing Pumpkins, Adam Lambert, Jeff Beck plus having very succesfull (Grammy nominated) own projects.

 

[gordyboy9]

The depiction in Autobio did Alain horribly dirty... to his great credit, he didn't try to hit back. I don't trust anything M says about Alain trying to 'grab the crown', just as I don't believe for one moment his fanciful story about Joe Moss trying to replace him in The Smiths. He has repeated the same paranoid accusations many times, only the names change. And as we've seen in recent months, there is often an embarrassing gulf between M's perception and the reality.

alains lawyers sent M a letter saying alains face must appear on any future releases they were told nope,alains lawyers sent M a letter saying alain should be allowed to perform the songs he contributed to and M said fair enough,not a problem.

 

[Amy]

alains lawyers sent M a letter saying alains face must appear on any future releases they were told nope,alains lawyers sent M a letter saying alain should be allowed to perform the songs he contributed to and M said fair enough,not a problem.

This is what Morrissey claims, yes, but every story has two sides and Alain has never responded to give his. I am long past taking anything M says at face value - let alone repeating it as fact.

 

[Seymour Glass]

And now Alain is doing acoustic sets of mostly Moz tunes in seedy dive bars and Bakersfield breweries and dragging poor Gustavo around with him. When will he understand that he is not a front man and can't sing?

 

[Erik]

Hold on, I’m comin’

 

[Dirk Blaggard]

View attachment 150190
Horse's mouth.
FWD.

The thing is, AW had worked with M , for how many years , 14 or 15 years?
It goes to show how little band members actually mean to M, in terms of friendship
I think you have only ever really had 2 band people who were close to M
They are J Marr and Jessie
The longest band friend, at this point, is Jesse. I have spoken to both Jessie and M coming out of a supermarket across from Jesse''s fecking gaff on a few occasions, its safe to say it's the fecking booze that is the glue. Same shit with Donnie, Donnie often goes boozing with M

I think it's pretty clear, no matter what M says, he has a deep love/hate relationship, with Marr, which nobody, not even fecking Jake, will get close to. Marr and M were not together that long though. In a way, they are like first loves, who married had a kid they both loved to death and then split up. No matter what they do, they are tied together for fecking ever due to their child

Boz , is a friend but not in any real deep sense. He is kind of a friend to him, in the way that James Maker has been a friend to M, over the last 30 years.
They rarely ever spend time with each other. when they speak it's via email. That kind of shit
I know this as a couple of mates used to hang with James and his partner and loads of People know Boz, in Camden. We all have those old friends we used to work/hang with back in the day, who we are not really close to or share much affection for but you keep in touch anyhow

I don't think Alain has never been a real friend with M, as far as I can tell. Not in M's mind. It's always been a working relationship. There is no way, M would let Donnie feck off someone who was a mate and Donnie knows not to feck with people M does care about

 

[Thewlis]

This is what Morrissey claims, yes, but every story has two sides and Alain has never responded to give his. I am long past taking anything M says at face value - let alone repeating it as fact.

Morrissey may have twisted and inflated the story, but the basic reason for Alains departure in 2004 is true. Moz had huge success that year, largely due to Alains who wrote Quarry’s two big hits. It’s only reasonable that Alain asked for a bigger piece of the success. I don’t for a moment believe that Alain ‘demanded’ to be on the front cover. He may have suggested it at the most.

 

[JRB]

Carmen seems to be getting a hard time and it is hard to rationalise why, other than love for Alain and Boz who were around for a long time. Alain and Boz are really solid guitar players and honed their playing over decades on the road. Alain developed real swagger but was by no means a great guitar player in the early days of the band. By the late 90s he had become really solid. Boz too, but he was far from a great player in the early 90s. Some of the Morrissey live shows in the early nineties are really ragged in terms of the playing, despite the great energy and atmosphere. As they developed with Morrissey is worth emphasising that neither Alain nor Boz took any risks with their live playing. They played as per the recordings for the majority of the time, which are largely basic guitar parts. Both real meat and potatoes players and neither ever likely to be picked up by an artist of greater popularity than Morrissey. Carmen plays with more flair and makes her solos far complicated and seems keen to develop and take risks. Her level as a player is higher though, especially bearing in mind she is very young compared to Alan and Boz who improved over the decades they played. As writers, Boz and Alain both wrote some great songs for Morrissey whereas we don't know if Carmen will ever be more than a player.

 

[Multi]

Morrissey may have twisted and inflated the story, but the basic reason for Alains departure in 2004 is true. Moz had huge success that year, largely due to Alains who wrote Quarry’s two big hits. It’s only reasonable that Alain asked for a bigger piece of the success. I don’t for a moment believe that Alain ‘demanded’ to be on the front cover. He may have suggested it at the most.

this is not the reason that Alain left in 2004.

 

[cat on a train]

How I dearly wish I had one of those hats.

I was about to say the same. Perfect for the workplace.

Who is Rudolpho? He seems to have a bad influence on Carmen.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

Who is Rudolpho? He seems to have a bad influence on Carmen.

Damon. Mozi’s “assistant”.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

The thing is, AW had worked with M , for how many years , 14 or 15 years?
It goes to show how little band members actually mean to M, in terms of friendship
I think you have only ever really had 2 band people who were close to M
They are J Marr and Jessie
The longest band friend, at this point, is Jesse. I have spoken to both Jessie and M coming out of a supermarket across from Jesse''s fecking gaff on a few occasions, its safe to say it's the fecking booze that is the glue. Same shit with Donnie, Donnie often goes boozing with M

I think it's pretty clear, no matter what M says, he has a deep love/hate relationship, with Marr, which nobody, not even fecking Jake, will get close to. Marr and M were not together that long though. In a way, they are like first loves, who married had a kid they both loved to death and then split up. No matter what they do, they are tied together for fecking ever due to their child

Boz , is a friend but not in any real deep sense. He is kind of a friend to him, in the way that James Maker has been a friend to M, over the last 30 years.
They rarely ever spend time with each other. when they speak it's via email. That kind of shit
I know this as a couple of mates used to hang with James and his partner and loads of People know Boz, in Camden. We all have those old friends we used to work/hang with back in the day, who we are not really close to or share much affection for but you keep in touch anyhow

I don't think Alain has never been a real friend with M, as far as I can tell. Not in M's mind. It's always been a working relationship. There is no way, M would let Donnie feck off someone who was a mate and Donnie knows not to feck with people M does care about

Did you go to the gig, Derek? Like you said you were going to? I’ve not seen you mention a fecking thing about it.

 

[Amy]

Morrissey may have twisted and inflated the story, but the basic reason for Alains departure in 2004 is true. Moz had huge success that year, largely due to Alains who wrote Quarry’s two big hits. It’s only reasonable that Alain asked for a bigger piece of the success. I don’t for a moment believe that Alain ‘demanded’ to be on the front cover. He may have suggested it at the most.

I'm reluctant to discuss this because I know Alain's friend is on here and I think we should assume that if the 'reasons' have been kept private this long, it's because there's good cause for it and Alain wants it to remain that way. It may be that it was due to a combination of factors, it may be that those factors vary in each person's retelling or memory. Nonetheless - this stuff about the limelight has nothing to do with it and I think if you read Autobio again, you'll see that Moz isn't giving this as a reason or indeed giving any reason. He was very deliberately vague.

 

[Amy]

The thing is, AW had worked with M , for how many years , 14 or 15 years?
It goes to show how little band members actually mean to M, in terms of friendship
I think you have only ever really had 2 band people who were close to M
They are J Marr and Jessie
The longest band friend, at this point, is Jesse. I have spoken to both Jessie and M coming out of a supermarket across from Jesse''s fecking gaff on a few occasions, its safe to say it's the fecking booze that is the glue. Same shit with Donnie, Donnie often goes boozing with M

I think it's pretty clear, no matter what M says, he has a deep love/hate relationship, with Marr, which nobody, not even fecking Jake, will get close to. Marr and M were not together that long though. In a way, they are like first loves, who married had a kid they both loved to death and then split up. No matter what they do, they are tied together for fecking ever due to their child

Boz , is a friend but not in any real deep sense. He is kind of a friend to him, in the way that James Maker has been a friend to M, over the last 30 years.
They rarely ever spend time with each other. when they speak it's via email. That kind of shit
I know this as a couple of mates used to hang with James and his partner and loads of People know Boz, in Camden. We all have those old friends we used to work/hang with back in the day, who we are not really close to or share much affection for but you keep in touch anyhow

I don't think Alain has never been a real friend with M, as far as I can tell. Not in M's mind. It's always been a working relationship. There is no way, M would let Donnie feck off someone who was a mate and Donnie knows not to feck with people M does care about