Inside information on Moz, Marr & management

[Amy]

Odbmke, for what little it is worth: I'm very grateful for all you've brought to light here and I trust your honesty.

That said, I do wonder if you might give Morrissey the benefit of the doubt sometimes?

There are things here no-one can know about, including what Marr might have said to Moz in private for instance.

I also wonder if not enough attention has been given to how horrific it may have been for Morrissey if (?) Marr was indeed thinking of resurrecting the Smiths with Brandon Flowers or whoever?

Myself, I can't help really feeling for Morrissey in all this. He needs prayer, help and understanding.

But again, I am grateful to you.

Two questions. You say you are sure Morrissey will be reading this. How do you know? Genuinely curious . . .

Also do you think there could still be any hope at all that the tour might come off, even if it takes two or three years?

He posted inaccurate and goading statements three times, solely to stir up hatred and animosity towards Johnny, on the basis of what turned out to be bad-faith assumptions and lies. Then, rather than apologise and say "I got this trademark stuff wrong", he made his management 'take the fall' and just carried on, adding personal insults in his next interview for good measure.

Is that a good man? Is that behaviour that deserves the benefit of the doubt? Not to me. I am sorry for his bitterness and obvious unhappiness, the way he can't seem to change his destructive behaviours, and the miserable mess that the past 10 years has been but he has caused so much of it himself. There is a point where you give up concocting excuses for his actions and you just have to face that he is an angry man who is terminally locked in some 'war' or other against the world, for reasons we will never fully understand.

I used to dream that Johnny would save this situation - that he'd see the depression behind M's words and 'letters' and somehow fly in on a winged horse and just 'clean it all up' and rescue Morrissey from his own mind. And then I realised that nobody can do that for another adult, ever, and that JM isn't Morrissey's mother, wife, therapist or his punching-bag when life gets a bit shit. Morrissey has crossed a line, and if Marr never speaks to him again - so be it. He is clearly sick to death of having to be 'the adult in the room', the one who deals with responsibilities whilst M fights, complains, has paranoid meltdowns and just can't seem to get his shit together in any way. It is sad, and from a distance I am sure JM feels for M and wonders what the hell is really going on in his head, but the best thing he can do is stay away.

 

[gordyboy9]

Morrissey could murder someone in the street and you’d blame me for pointing it out.

dont be a silly boy,look mr oddie if you provide the evedence i will apologise and say you were the epitome of honesty,how does that sound.
as for M murdering someone well im sure the police will look at the evidence and charge him accordingly to which he will be tried before a jury of his peers and if found guilty he will be eating vegan poridge for the rest of his days.

 

[BrokenFrame]

That has nothing to do with Morrissey being unable to perform SHJ. Nice deflection.

I have enough proof. I may eventually start posting it. Not that it matters… every day that goes by, Morrissey himself proves how incompetent he’s become. Which is basically my point.

Just post the proof.

 

[Odbmke]

Just post the proof.

What would you find acceptable? What, if produced, would make you believe that there was a deal that went away?

Because you don’t need anything from me to prove that, just look at Jesse’s statement from early August, and what’s happened since.

 

[Redacted]

@Odbmke did you say these shows were to say look at all this adoration and no record deal?

REVIEW: MORRISSEY LIVE IN LOS ANGELES - THE YEAR 2025 WON'T CHANGE ANYONE HERE - Dickie Felton

Morrissey basks in Broadway with a trio of sold-out Christmas shows. Dickie Felton reports from the United Theater in the City of Angels...

dickiefelton.com

​

 

[Redacted]

What would you find acceptable? What, if produced, would make you believe that there was a deal that went away?

Because you don’t need anything from me to prove that, just look at Jesse’s statement from early August, and what’s happened since.

Well, when proof was posted about the Miley situation people refused to believe it so I don't know why people are asking you for it

 

[Jamie]

I used to dream that Johnny would save this situation - that he'd see the depression behind M's words and 'letters' and somehow fly in on a winged horse and just 'clean it all up' and rescue Morrissey from his own mind. And then I realised that nobody can do that for another adult, ever, and that JM isn't Morrissey's mother, wife, therapist or his punching-bag when life gets a bit shit. Morrissey has crossed a line, and if Marr never speaks to him again - so be it. He is clearly sick to death of having to be 'the adult in the room', the one who deals with responsibilities whilst M fights, complains, has paranoid meltdowns and just can't seem to get his shit together in any way. It is sad, and from a distance I am sure JM feels for M and wonders what the hell is really going on in his head, but the best thing he can do is stay away.

The analogy of a divorced couple never fails to fit these two. And without getting into mucky psychologizing about it, it's not unlike a scenario where, post-divorce, one partner is very publicly and very spectacularly unstable in their actions and the other is continually having their attention drawn to their ex for reaction or comment while they're just trying to get on with their life.

I imagine a lot of this over the years:

Associate of JM's: "I suppose you've probably heard the latest controversy?"
JM's: (sighs) "What did he say now?"

After all this time, I expect him to be quite inured to it.

 

[BrokenFrame]

Well, when proof was posted about the Miley situation people refused to believe it so I don't know why people are asking you for it

I believed it, don't give this guy more excuses.

 

[Catholic]

He posted inaccurate and goading statements three times, solely to stir up hatred and animosity towards Johnny, on the basis of what turned out to be bad-faith assumptions and lies. Then, rather than apologise and say "I got this trademark stuff wrong", he made his management 'take the fall' and just carried on, adding personal insults in his next interview for good measure.

Is that a good man? Is that behaviour that deserves the benefit of the doubt? Not to me. I am sorry for his bitterness and obvious unhappiness, the way he can't seem to change his destructive behaviours, and the miserable mess that the past 10 years has been but he has caused so much of it himself. There is a point where you give up concocting excuses for his actions and you just have to face that he is an angry man who is terminally locked in some 'war' or other against the world, for reasons we will never fully understand.

I used to dream that Johnny would save this situation - that he'd see the depression behind M's words and 'letters' and somehow fly in on a winged horse and just 'clean it all up' and rescue Morrissey from his own mind. And then I realised that nobody can do that for another adult, ever, and that JM isn't Morrissey's mother, wife, therapist or his punching-bag when life gets a bit shit. Morrissey has crossed a line, and if Marr never speaks to him again - so be it. He is clearly sick to death of having to be 'the adult in the room', the one who deals with responsibilities whilst M fights, complains, has paranoid meltdowns and just can't seem to get his shit together in any way. It is sad, and from a distance I am sure JM feels for M and wonders what the hell is really going on in his head, but the best thing he can do is stay away.

Long delayed response now.

@Amy, I'm grateful for this. I see your all posts are born from long-held intelligent empathy for Morrissey and Marr over decades of careful observation. I've learned a lot from you.

I won't say too much to your particulars here, except that I hear you—with sorrow in my heart for Morrissey . . . and prayers for him.

I will add that we just can never know what demons any man or woman ever faces or why those demons began visiting him or her in the first place. In early childhood? In the womb . . . ?

But I will amplify an original point I tried to make that does not necessarily negate the things you've sadly observed, but does, for me, add another dimension to this mix.

@Odbmke has said the unnamed singer, presumably Flowers, was solicited by Marr, and declined the offer!

And he/she confirms that here: https://www.morrissey-solo.com/thre...happened-november-15-2024.153033/page-4#posts

If this is true, I do think it helps explain Morrissey a little . . . or more than a little. Explain is not the same as justify. But explain.

I always wonder if poor Moz singing in Speedway is at least partly singing of Marr:

All of the rumors
Keeping me grounded
I never said, I never said that they were
Completely unfounded
And all those lies
Written lies, twisted lies
Well, they weren't lies
They weren't lies
They weren't lies
I never said
I never said
I could have mentioned your name
I could have dragged you in
Guilt by implication
By association


I've always been true to you
In my own strange way
I've always been true to you
In my own sick way
I'll always stay true to you

If there were any truth to my assumption here, it would seem that Morrissey did stay true in his own strange way for decades. Till now . . .

I wonder if he now feels truly incredible pain with Johnny Marr now, because something like a Killer Smiths was attempted or an After Smiths. Call it what you will. But Flowers, not Marr, refused.

That as @Odbmke reports Marr did solicit this—incredible as it seems!

In my opinion, such a scenario changes everything. It makes my heart weep. As you posted, the first cut is the deepest . . .

Poor Morrissey. My heart really does out to him, even if I'm not arguing with your tragic, astute commentary.

Again, who knows where our demons really stem from? For all we know, terrible fear in the womb . . .

EDIT to gnomically add something. I'm tremendously grateful for Marr's music, the best of which haunts me, like none other of Morrissey's co-writers. But I do think a vocalist like Morrissey or indeed Flowers can add so much to what Marr is doing.

Perhaps Marr sees such after years of solo work. I would welcome a band with Flowers were it not called the Smiths. Flowers or someone else who can really sing in a soulful way.

​

 

[Gray Fruit]

Yeah, it probably would never have worked out anyway...

 

[Amy]

Long delayed response now.

@Amy, I'm grateful for this. I see your all posts are born from decades of real and intelligent empathy for Morrissey and Marr over decades of careful observation. I've learned a lot from you.

I won't say too much to your particulars here, except that I hear you—with sorrow in my heart for Morrissey . . . and prayers for him.

I will add that we just can never know what demons any man or woman ever faces or why those demons began visiting him or her in the first place. In early childhood? In the womb . . . ?

But I will amplify an original point I tried to make that does not necessarily negate the things you've sadly observed, but does, for me, add another dimension to this mix.

@Odbmke has said the unnamed singer, presumably Flowers, was solicited by Marr, and declined the offer!

And he/she confirms that here: https://www.morrissey-solo.com/thre...happened-november-15-2024.153033/page-4#posts

If this is true, I do think it helps explain Morrissey a little . . . or more than a little. Explain is not the same as justify. But explain.

I always wonder if poor Moz singing in Speedway is at least partly singing of Marr:

All of the rumors
Keeping me grounded
I never said, I never said that they were
Completely unfounded
And all those lies
Written lies, twisted lies
Well, they weren't lies
They weren't lies
They weren't lies
I never said
I never said
I could have mentioned your name
I could have dragged you in
Guilt by implication
By association


I've always been true to you
In my own strange way
I've always been true to you
In my own sick way
I'll always stay true to you

If there were any truth to my assumption here, it would seem that Morrissey did stay true in his own strange way for decades. Till now . . .

I wonder if he now feels truly incredible pain with Johnny Marr now, because something like a Killer Smiths was attempted or an After Smiths. Call it what you will. But Flowers, not Marr refused.

That as @Odbmke reports Marr did solicit this—incredible as it seems!

In my opinion, such a scenario changes everything. It makes my heart weep. As you posted, the first cut is the deepest . . .

Poor Morrissey. My heart really does out to him, even if I'm not arguing with your tragic, astute commentary.

Again who knows where our demons really stem from? For all we know, terrible fear in the womb . . .

EDIT to gnomically add something. I'm tremendously grateful for Marr's music, the best of which haunts me, like none of other Morrissey's co-writers. But I do think a vocalist like Morrissey or indeed Flowers can add so much to what Marr is doing.

Perhaps Marr sees such after years of solo work. I would welcome a band with Flowers were it not called the Smiths. Flowers or someone else who can really sing in a soulful way.

​

Thank you for responding. You clearly care about this very much and it's nice that someone, somewhere has some empathy for M because I have exhausted all mine now.

I don't want to start arguments but I'm sick to death of "insiders" spilling their guts here and people eating it up as though this forum was Popbitch. I don't believe the Flowers story for a second, I think it's credulous shit-stirring. But even if it were true, it's irrelevant because I know - through my years of agonising over it all - that a story like that is just one in a long, long line of ludicrous reasons that Morrissey has leaned on to justify his victim narrative when it comes to Johnny. It goes decades back - not only getting annoyed with things that JM says in magazines but getting upset over what he doesn't say. Not challenging negative headlines. Not saying that M wasn't 'devious, truculent and unreliable' after the court case. And probably not erecting a Morrissey shrine in his house and kissing its feet 10 times a day.

I think Morrissey has loved Johnny all his life and that is the driving force behind this. I can have sympathy for that. But in all that time... his expectations have been so, so far beyond what is really fair for any friend. Everybody argues and pisses each other off; everybody needs a bit of space occasionally - even a spouse would struggle to be perfect and to never say one harsh word in 40 years. To memorise and catalogue every tiny slight and have it carved in your head like he does is just so, so unhealthy. Nobody could ever live up to that because even when they do love you (and I am sure Johnny does), they can't be reassuring you 24/7. Sometimes a person just has to deal with their insecurities.

The only 'light in the tunnel' I hold on to is that JM is fundamentally decent, he knows Morrissey and their history like the back of his hand and when he has picked the latest knives out of his back, he will sort it out. And if that involves him saying - "look, Isaac Brock / Matt Johnson / Bernard Sumner etc is not God's gift, I was being petty.." then good. A bit of reassurance, after the decade Moz has had, would be nice. Simon & Garfunkel recently ended their impossibly long feud with a teary 'pub meet' after decades, and guess what - it was over all the same stuff! So don't despair, we've just got 20 years to wait...

‘I was a fool’: Art Garfunkel describes tearful reunion with Paul Simon

Singer describes recent meeting where Simon said he was offended by an old interview, and pair reconciled

www.theguardian.com

 

[Odbmke]

Long delayed response now.

@Amy, I'm grateful for this. I see your all posts are born from decades of real and intelligent empathy for Morrissey and Marr over decades of careful observation. I've learned a lot from you.

I won't say too much to your particulars here, except that I hear you—with sorrow in my heart for Morrissey . . . and prayers for him.

I will add that we just can never know what demons any man or woman ever faces or why those demons began visiting him or her in the first place. In early childhood? In the womb . . . ?

But I will amplify an original point I tried to make that does not necessarily negate the things you've sadly observed, but does, for me, add another dimension to this mix.

@Odbmke has said the unnamed singer, presumably Flowers, was solicited by Marr, and declined the offer!

And he/she confirms that here: https://www.morrissey-solo.com/thre...happened-november-15-2024.153033/page-4#posts

If this is true, I do think it helps explain Morrissey a little . . . or more than a little. Explain is not the same as justify. But explain.

I always wonder if poor Moz singing in Speedway is at least partly singing of Marr:

All of the rumors
Keeping me grounded
I never said, I never said that they were
Completely unfounded
And all those lies
Written lies, twisted lies
Well, they weren't lies
They weren't lies
They weren't lies
I never said
I never said
I could have mentioned your name
I could have dragged you in
Guilt by implication
By association


I've always been true to you
In my own strange way
I've always been true to you
In my own sick way
I'll always stay true to you

If there were any truth to my assumption here, it would seem that Morrissey did stay true in his own strange way for decades. Till now . . .

I wonder if he now feels truly incredible pain with Johnny Marr now, because something like a Killer Smiths was attempted or an After Smiths. Call it what you will. But Flowers, not Marr refused.

That as @Odbmke reports Marr did solicit this—incredible as it seems!

In my opinion, such a scenario changes everything. It makes my heart weep. As you posted, the first cut is the deepest . . .

Poor Morrissey. My heart really does out to him, even if I'm not arguing with your tragic, astute commentary.

Again who knows where our demons really stem from? For all we know, terrible fear in the womb . . .

EDIT to gnomically add something. I'm tremendously grateful for Marr's music, the best of which haunts me, like none of other Morrissey's co-writers. But I do think a vocalist like Morrissey or indeed Flowers can add so much to what Marr is doing.

Perhaps Marr sees such after years of solo work. I would welcome a band with Flowers were it not called the Smiths. Flowers or someone else who can really sing in a soulful way.

​

When you realize what a douche Moz is business-wise, you feel a bit for Johnny. Why is it that Morrissey can have J. Tobias butcher HSIN, but Marr can’t invite a singer to do the same if he chooses?

Morrissey does nothing to secure the Smiths trademark from 1982 until 2019, then Johnny does just so that someone is protecting it, and Morrissey decides to get angry? Contrast that with Morrissey registering “Morrissey.com” in 1995.

Yes, a “pub meeting” would be great. Unfortunately as of this summer, he refuses to engage. Morrissey lives 10 minutes from Johnny and M had his current email, yet used Central to post publicly. That’s not an adult conducting business, it’s a child having a tantrum.

 

[Les Tameside]

Yeah, it probably would never have worked out anyway...

Christ, what a disappointing vocal, although it improves towards the end. I came to it as someone wanting to enjoy it.

 

[Redacted]

When you realize what a douche Moz is business-wise, you feel a bit for Johnny. Why is it that Morrissey can have J. Tobias butcher HSIN, but Marr can’t invite a singer to do the same if he chooses?

Morrissey does nothing to secure the Smiths trademark from 1982 until 2019, then Johnny does just so that someone is protecting it, and Morrissey decides to get angry? Contrast that with Morrissey registering “Morrissey.com” in 1995.

Yes, a “pub meeting” would be great. Unfortunately as of this summer, he refuses to engage. Morrissey lives 10 minutes from Johnny and M had his current email, yet used Central to post publicly. That’s not an adult conducting business, it’s a child having a tantrum.

I agree. A few years ago when the open letter happened, I was squarely on Morrissey's side in that one, but things have changed. Johnny has changed his behavior a lot and Morrissey has just gotten worse and very provocative toward Johnny. Johnny can't save him and should not be expected to- he has a life and a family, a career, lots of friends - he seems pretty happy, and why would anyone want to jump back into the dark black bottomless hole that is Morrissey.
I initially was against Johnny touring with someone else singing Smiths songs , but you are right, if Morrissey lets other people play Johnny's (and Andy's and Mike's) music so horribly, why can't someone else sing Morrissey's vocals. Please no to Brandon Flowers tho.

 

[Amy]

When you realize what a douche Moz is business-wise, you feel a bit for Johnny. Why is it that Morrissey can have J. Tobias butcher HSIN, but Marr can’t invite a singer to do the same if he chooses?

Morrissey does nothing to secure the Smiths trademark from 1982 until 2019, then Johnny does just so that someone is protecting it, and Morrissey decides to get angry? Contrast that with Morrissey registering “Morrissey.com” in 1995.

Yes, a “pub meeting” would be great. Unfortunately as of this summer, he refuses to engage. Morrissey lives 10 minutes from Johnny and M had his current email, yet used Central to post publicly. That’s not an adult conducting business, it’s a child having a tantrum.

Yeah, and look how that worked out. He'll be avoiding contact now out of sheer embarrassment. It's all childish mind games. "Thou shalt grovel for misdeeds and adore me all your days or else I'll make your life a misery". Yeah, amazing how that didn't lead to a reunion.

 

[Pieces of Dreams]

Hi, I'm a bit new here, but I have been following this conversation.

It doesn't have to stay like that, right?

Apologies can happen. Put egos aside and go sit down and talk.

The way the media moves today is super fast. Attention spans have decreased. This could all be forgotten with a little time and overshadowed by what could be. There is always a way if you want there to be one.

 

[Andy W]

Yeah, and look how that worked out. He'll be avoiding contact now out of sheer embarrassment. It's all childish mind games. "Thou shalt grovel for misdeeds and adore me all your days or else I'll make your life a misery". Yeah, amazing how that didn't lead to a reunion.

Knowing how Johnny works, he’ll have gotten professional advice on how to deal with the classic narcissist that is Morrissey. From the flat, logical, unemotional response through his management to the most recent non-response to the latest tirade, he is using standard recommended techniques. The best response is that Johnny goes about his business, unbothered and resists being drawn back into the ridiculous, needy orbit of the Mozzer.

 

[Amy]

Hi, I'm a bit new here, but I have been following this conversation.

It doesn't have to stay like that, right?

Apologies can happen. Put egos aside and go sit down and talk.

The way the media moves today is super fast. Attention spans have decreased. This could all be forgotten with a little time and overshadowed by what could be. There is always a way if you want there to be one.

In the end, I'm sure it will be resolved. I think when you look at other things happening - like the absolutely awful situation with Alain losing his home etc - that puts this bickering into perspective a bit. It is silly and all over nothing at the end of the day.

 

[Gray Fruit]

Hi, I'm a bit new here, but I have been following this conversation.

It doesn't have to stay like that, right?

Apologies can happen. Put egos aside and go sit down and talk.

The way the media moves today is super fast. Attention spans have decreased. This could all be forgotten with a little time and overshadowed by what could be. There is always a way if you want there to be one.

I don't think Morrissey will ever apologize. I'll eat my hat if it happens.

 

[Amy]

I don't think Morrissey will ever apologize. I'll eat my hat if it happens.

I don't think he will want to be the first, but a sincere apology can go a long way. And I'd argue he's apologized in song, a fair few times over the years.


Stand your ground and persist
And be the last one to blink
But can you forgive someone?