Morrissey’s view on gender identity

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

I think I am done now. For today at least.

Good night everyone.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

Has anyone ever mentioned that you are f***ing nuts?

Yes. She/It/They are insane.

 

[Frank Jobsworth]

If you read the article half the criticism was about how badly behaved the boy was in the video. Where are gender critical people quoted in the article? There are none. It’s just normal people not liking an advert.

Why should Muslim women stop going to women only swimming sessions because a white male with a cock claims to be a woman.

Coward.

It's fine to take that stance but i wouldn't use religion based segregation as some kind of measure of progressive values.
As for black cis women being denied access to higher education, increase the number of places available, it's not like there's that many trans people around that it would be beyond the wit of man to solve

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

.


“Take my hand and off we stride
You're a girl and I'm a boy
Take my hand and off we stride
I'm a girl and you're a boy”

 

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

It's fine to take that stance but i wouldn't use religion based segregation as some kind of measure of progressive values.
As for black cis women being denied access to higher education, increase the number of places available, it's not like there's that many trans people around that it would be beyond the wit of man to solve

Could you clarify then that you are happy for Muslim women to be deprived of being able to swim, to enable a white in tact male to take over their session? That’s a good outcome for you?

Just who is going to increase the number of scholarships then? Until that is resolved by this mystery person or people, I suppose you are content for less black working class women getting these scholarships?

What about health authorities moving to more ‘inclusive’ language from ‘women’ to ‘people with cervixes’? Women with poor English, usually women of colour will miss appointments. Some will die. But that does not concern you.

Eddie Izzard seeking to be an MP against a women of colour in a seat that has always had a white male holding the seat.

Racist outcomes are not a by product of transgenderism. It’s a feature. And you support it.

 

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

.


“Take my hand and off we stride
You're a girl and I'm a boy
Take my hand and off we stride
I'm a girl and you're a boy”

Yes. With Candy Darling on the cover of that single. Not a coincidence I am guessin?

But the discourse has changed dramatically since the 80s. I have certainly changed my position on this.

Morrissey may have changed his. His support for Germaine Greer and JK Rowling indicates as such. But who knows? It’s interesting to me.

And I am very enjoying everyone’s contributions on this.

 

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

You posed an unanswerable question, since he hasn’t spoken or been asked about the subject directly. So we can only draw from the past/recent past and speculate on what he’s already said, etc.

such as …..


‘Does the body rule the mind or does the mind rule the body?’

I find that lyric much less convincing than others. This can be interpreted in many different ways.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

I find that lyric much less convincing than others. This can be interpreted in many different ways.

Lionel, you are speaking my language. You must be humasexual like me, and Morrissey.
That lyric from Still Ill is obviously about shagging, not about gender.

 

[gashonthenail]

There is no such thing as 'gender identity'. The concept is a total myth fostered by the medical industrial complex to make big profits from pushing drugs and plastic surgery on kids - i.e. child abuse. Let's call a spade a spade.

We are human consciousness born in a sexed body. Biological sex is binary. You can't change the sex of your body. We can all feel aspects of being 'female' and 'male' inside. Gender roles set down by society are bull shit. People should be who they want to be, and live how they want to live. But we live in sexed bodies. Women's sex based rights are important and should be respected. Sex is not determined by how you feel inside.

Coming to terms with and accepting the body we are born in is one of the challenges of adolescence. It's a roller coaster ride - if we make it to adulthood with some semblance of sanity we are lucky.

A small minority never comes to terms with the body they are born in. It's really just a form of body dysmorphia. If that small minority want to try hormones and even plastic surgery - when they are adults - I wish them well. As the song goes:

We all do what we can
Just to get along

Candy Says is one of my favourite VU songs, and indicative of the fact that the unhappiness of being trans goes much deeper than just feeling you're 'a woman trapped in a man's body' or vice versa. We all sometimes wish we could be someone else. That's something existential - and goes way beyond gender or sex.

Extreme trans ideology is another thing entirely. It's a marketing ploy with big dollars funding it. It is about exploiting totally natural feelings of alienation and confusion in kids and then profiteering from that by pushing harmful life changing treatments. If you think Moz would support that, you must be crazy. Let boys play with dolls if they want. Let girls be Tom boys if they want. We don't need to sterilise them and chop their breasts off.

Puberty blockers do not alleviate negative thoughts in children with gender dysphoria, finds study

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.1 However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and...

www.bmj.com

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

There is no such thing as 'gender identity'. The concept is a total myth fostered by the medical industrial complex to make big profits from pushing drugs and plastic surgery on kids - i.e. child abuse. Let's call a spade a spade.

We are human consciousness born in a sexed body. Biological sex is binary. You can't change the sex of your body. We can all feel aspects of being 'female' and 'male' inside. Gender roles set down by society are bull shit. People should be who they want to be, and live how they want to live. But we live in sexed bodies. Women's sex based rights are important and should be respected. Sex is not determined by how you feel inside.

Coming to terms with and accepting the body we are born in is one of the challenges of adolescence. It's a roller coaster ride - if we make it to adulthood with some semblance of sanity we are lucky.

A small minority never comes to terms with the body they are born in. It's really just a form of body dysmorphia. If that small minority want to try hormones and even plastic surgery - when they are adults - I wish them well. As the song goes:

We all do what we can
Just to get along

Candy Says is one of my favourite VU songs, and indicative of the fact that the unhappiness of being trans goes much deeper than just feeling you're 'a woman trapped in a man's body' or vice versa. We all sometimes wish we could be someone else. That's something existential - and goes way beyond gender or sex.

Extreme trans ideology is another thing entirely. It's a marketing ploy with big dollars funding it. It is about exploiting totally natural feelings of alienation and confusion in kids and then profiteering from that by pushing harmful life changing treatments. If you think Moz would support that, you must be crazy. Let boys play with dolls if they want. Let girls be Tom boys if they want. We don't need to sterilise them and chop their breasts off.

Puberty blockers do not alleviate negative thoughts in children with gender dysphoria, finds study

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.1 However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and...

www.bmj.com

Nerak Makarkey:

(In Scottish)

 

[Anonymous]

You can't change the sex of your body.

Take away psychology and social roles, it is possible to change the sex of the body, but you can't change DNA (which is fixed).

I think you have made up your mind and keep repeating your arguement about puberty blockers. If you have evidence that you aren't just reading this stuff on the internet and have researched this in a inbiased setting and have a rounded perspective of the pros and cons, otherwise your views have not shifted despite alot of another information and views that other people have given. No everyone goes on puberty blockers, most don't need to have surgery either, they just needed to talk about what is making them so unhappy about their body and gender, some people are in denial about being homosexual and some are tomboys or feminine boys and have no alarm bells about their body sex. Ethics, good practice and clarity is what people at the tavistock wrung their hands over constantly, and they didn't do anything that wasn't talked over and discussed many times. Puberty blockers are still a short term solution for a very complex delicate frame of mind and the onset of puberty. I worked at the tavistock centre in another department, the centre is actually a huge building which has many specialised departments for social and mental health care and its close too Sigmund Freuds' house. The Gender Idenity Service (I didn't think this was a great name, personally, because idenity feels more 2-D and more like a badge or sticker than a description of a type of person) at the Tavistock had much hostility from other departments, the staff got harrassed and assulted by others that worked in the building, it is a very tough area to work in and many that worked for GIDS were very unhappy and scared to go to work. I do agree that patients for life are created through sex changes, but we are all patients for life, at different stages.



I do agree with these points you made:

Coming to terms with and accepting the body we are born in is one of the challenges of adolescence. It's a roller coaster ride - if we make it to adulthood with some semblance of sanity we are lucky.

A small minority never comes to terms with the body they are born in. It's really just a form of body dysmorphia.

...the unhappiness of being trans goes much deeper than just feeling you're 'a woman trapped in a man's body' or vice versa. We all sometimes wish we could be someone else. That's something existential - and goes way beyond gender or sex.

There is no such thing as 'gender identity'.

 

[Anonymous]

*Sorry I may add, by DNA I mean more specifically chromosomes which are genetic code like the blue prints of our bodies and cannot be altered.

 

[gashonthenail]

Take away psychology and social roles, it is possible to change the sex of the body, but you can't change DNA (which is fixed).

I think you have made up your mind and keep repeating your arguement about puberty blockers. If you have evidence that you aren't just reading this stuff on the internet and have researched this in a inbiased setting and have a rounded perspective of the pros and cons, otherwise your views have not shifted despite alot of another information and views that other people have given. No everyone goes on puberty blockers, most don't need to have surgery either, they just needed to talk about what is making them so unhappy about their body and gender, some people are in denial about being homosexual and some are tomboys or feminine boys and have no alarm bells about their body sex. Ethics, good practice and clarity is what people at the tavistock wrung their hands over constantly, and they didn't do anything that wasn't talked over and discussed many times. Puberty blockers are still a short term solution for a very complex delicate frame of mind and the onset of puberty. I worked at the tavistock centre in another department, the centre is actually a huge building which has many specialised departments for social and mental health care and its close too Sigmund Freuds' house. The Gender Idenity Service (I didn't think this was a great name, personally, because idenity feels more 2-D and more like a badge or sticker than a description of a type of person) at the Tavistock had much hostility from other departments, the staff got harrassed and assulted by others that worked in the building, it is a very tough area to work in and many that worked for GIDS were very unhappy and scared to go to work. I do agree that patients for life are created through sex changes, but we are all patients for life, at different stages.



I do agree with these points you made:

Respect - I know people working in therapy and the mental health system are good people who are trying their best to help. I'm having a go at Big Pharma, not the staff working in places like the Tavistock. But I am very much of the opinion, yes, that biological treatment for what are fundamentally mental, psychological, and spiritual problems do more harm than good. I would include treatments for so-called gender dysphoria in that. All the evidence is that most teenagers with gender dysphoria simply grow out of it. And the idea that we should ban any therapy that doesn't automatically 'affirm' a child's supposed 'gender identity' is just crazy.

 

[Amy]

There is no such thing as 'gender identity'. The concept is a total myth fostered by the medical industrial complex to make big profits from pushing drugs and plastic surgery on kids - i.e. child abuse. Let's call a spade a spade.

We are human consciousness born in a sexed body. Biological sex is binary. You can't change the sex of your body. We can all feel aspects of being 'female' and 'male' inside. Gender roles set down by society are bull shit. People should be who they want to be, and live how they want to live. But we live in sexed bodies. Women's sex based rights are important and should be respected. Sex is not determined by how you feel inside.

Coming to terms with and accepting the body we are born in is one of the challenges of adolescence. It's a roller coaster ride - if we make it to adulthood with some semblance of sanity we are lucky.

A small minority never comes to terms with the body they are born in. It's really just a form of body dysmorphia. If that small minority want to try hormones and even plastic surgery - when they are adults - I wish them well. As the song goes:

We all do what we can
Just to get along

Candy Says is one of my favourite VU songs, and indicative of the fact that the unhappiness of being trans goes much deeper than just feeling you're 'a woman trapped in a man's body' or vice versa. We all sometimes wish we could be someone else. That's something existential - and goes way beyond gender or sex.

Extreme trans ideology is another thing entirely. It's a marketing ploy with big dollars funding it. It is about exploiting totally natural feelings of alienation and confusion in kids and then profiteering from that by pushing harmful life changing treatments. If you think Moz would support that, you must be crazy. Let boys play with dolls if they want. Let girls be Tom boys if they want. We don't need to sterilise them and chop their breasts off.

Puberty blockers do not alleviate negative thoughts in children with gender dysphoria, finds study

Puberty blockers used to treat children aged 12 to 15 who have severe and persistent gender dysphoria had no significant effect on their psychological function, thoughts of self-harm, or body image, a study has found.1 However, as expected, the children experienced reduced growth in height and...

www.bmj.com

I agree with all of this.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm having a go at Big Pharma...

I was more of a hard listener and suggested prescripted medication as a last result, as I do think its effective for certain cases, but just masks the problem, often situational. I don't know what the state of 'big pharma' is in the UK since we have the NHS, and there are vast differences between the US and UK politics and social bugs. In the UK anyway, I can say that ideology isn't a massive influence and we like generally like straight talk and a broad spreadsheet of ideas to get to the end or ease of the problem. I didn't work in GIDS dept. but the people that I did know who worked there were aware of the issues you raised, such as effectiveness and suitable treatments, duration, moral ethics, child and adolescent age.

Of course there are people who are out of there depth in their job, mental health services in the uk are generally poor and badly organised, and of course there are people within the mh service that have there own intentions and bad practices. You'd just hope if you ended up needing help you would fall in the right hands!

I now work in finance, and look after my son and do community work, after working in mental health hospitals for children for a while, its hard to watch on the sidelines whilst young people's lives are instutionalised and broken down, very lonely, often misunderstood, bright children, from middle, upper and working class backgrounds, they seem to end up with the same look in their eyes, and that is confusion and thrist. Hope change isn't on the way out!

 

[another singing voice]

But I am very much of the opinion, yes, that biological treatment for what are fundamentally mental, psychological, and spiritual problems do more harm than good. I would include treatments for so-called gender dysphoria in that. All the evidence is that most teenagers with gender dysphoria simply grow out of it.

what would you say if you met someone who was on 'puberty blockers'? like any treatment there are pros and cons, how would you treat them?

 

[Frank Jobsworth]

Could you clarify then that you are happy for Muslim women to be deprived of being able to swim, to enable a white in tact male to take over their session? That’s a good outcome for you?

Just who is going to increase the number of scholarships then? Until that is resolved by this mystery person or people, I suppose you are content for less black working class women getting these scholarships?

What about health authorities moving to more ‘inclusive’ language from ‘women’ to ‘people with cervixes’? Women with poor English, usually women of colour will miss appointments. Some will die. But that does not concern you.

Eddie Izzard seeking to be an MP against a women of colour in a seat that has always had a white male holding the seat.

Racist outcomes are not a by product of transgenderism. It’s a feature. And you support it.

I don't really care what a muslim woman wants as such, if it's a pool attached to a mosque then whatever, it can have a set of rules based on its beliefs. If it's a pool open to the general public then it should be bound by whatever the rules are.

How many people have had their places taken by trans women?
Again, the entire trans population is tiny, i don't believe in collective punishment based on bigotry so i'd rather society/education system make the changes needed to accomodate it . i don't like minorities being set against each other like that.

Last year, the UK’s leading cervical cancer charity, Jo’s Cervical Cancer Trust, was forced to wade in to the same “debate”, and stress that some trans men, as well as some intersex and non-binary people, also have cervixes.

The charity highlighted the very real danger of excluding trans, non-binary and intersex people with cervixes from messaging about cervical cancer.

When it comes to matters of life and death(health, women's refuges etc) i think that safety should take priority over both sides of the debate, outside of that people need to dial the rhetoric back

 

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

I don't really care what a muslim woman wants as such, if it's a pool attached to a mosque then whatever, it can have a set of rules based on its beliefs. If it's a pool open to the general public then it should be bound by whatever the rules are.

Wow!! You know why swimming pools introduce women only sessions? So women that are not able to swim with men, are able to use the pool. In my area primarily these are Muslim women (women of colour) but also Jewish women are able to use the facilities.

You are saying ‘f*** these women of colour - a white man must take priority’. Pretty racist attitude of yours.

Not only this, but my friend said there was a cancer sufferer who had a double mastectomy is unable to swim now, and there were other women that were victims of sexual abuse.

But you want to prioritise a white man with a cock, who can swim whenever the f*** he wants.

You are racist and a misogynist. Shane on you.

 

[Frank Jobsworth]

Wow!! You know why swimming pools introduce women only sessions? So women that are not able to swim with men, are able to use the pool. In my area primarily these are Muslim women (women of colour) but also Jewish women are able to use the facilities.

You are saying ‘f*** these women of colour - a white man must take priority’. Pretty racist attitude of yours.

Not only this, but my friend said there was a cancer sufferer who had a double mastectomy is unable to swim now, and there were other women that were victims of sexual abuse.

But you want to prioritise a white man with a cock, who can swim whenever the f*** he wants.

You are racist and a misogynist. Shane on you.

They should stop staring at cocks in the swimming pool, if i started staring at flappy bits i would get kicked out for being a sex pest, it's a swimming pool, swim. Trans people can be any race as well so i dunno what the white thing is about to be honest, perhaps i missed something you said on one of the pages(apologies if so)

As for the rest, i love my wife a fair bit, we married in a mosque(she ain't white by the way) but if she tried to exclude people from places based on her religion i wouldn't tolerate it for a second, she wouldn't though as she's pretty cool about stuff outside of pork for some reason. I don't get why you dropped religion into the argument and then somehow made religious segregation and exclusion a measure of being progressive or not which is the bit that irritated me slightly.

I

 

[Lionel Cliffhanger]

How many people have had their places taken by trans women?
Again, the entire trans population is tiny, i don't believe in collective punishment based on bigotry so i'd rather society/education system make the changes needed to accomodate it . i don't like minorities being set against each other like that.

You know what - I don’t think one working class black girl should suffer because white boy’s identity as girls. Not one. But then again I am not racsist.

The problem with suggesting that minorities should not be set up against each other, is that at present one supposed minority (made up of middle class white males that want to wear their grannies knickers), get the benefit of that over women of colour. Again and again.