Morrissey Central “TREASURE THE DAY” (July 3, 2024)

TREASURE THE DAY - MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY - MORRISSEY CENTRAL - TREASURE THE DAY

MESSAGES FROM MORRISSEY on MORRISSEY CENTRAL

www.morrisseycentral.com

 

[j*e*t]

The wisp idea was just messing round imagining what someone who is missing person-hood and half made of paper would be like!

One of the articles above spoke about Morrissey writing like a ventriloquist from several points of view at once, both conventional, rebel outsider and other. I think there's some truth in that when he doesn't seem to be expressing a universal viewpoint. Also, wife rhymes better than husband with 'dies' and 'life'!

If one or the main voice is anti-marriage, rejecting the female spouse specifically, doesn't that echo one of the lazy dykes?: They pity how you live/Just "somebody's wife" /You give, and you give?

Also, consider the strength of feeling in Mama Lay Softly on the Riverbed:
Life is nothing much to lose/ It's just so lonely here without you.

Could there be some 'transgressive resignification', as Mitchell and Snyder (2000) put it, being applied to the bride in question?

As opposed to substituting more palatable terms, the ironic embrace of derogatory terminology has provided the leverage that belongs to openly transgressive displays […] The embrace of denigrating terminology forces the dominant culture to face its own violence head-on because the authority of devaluation has been claimed openly and ironically […] The effect shames the dominant culture into a recognition of its own dehumanizing precepts […] that detracts from the original power of the condescending terms.

Incidentally, again linking to above content, a John Betjeman Prize has been created to celebrate the repair and conservation of places of worship - https://www.spab.org.uk/about-us/awards/john-betjeman-award

I think critical theory is a bit beyond me, but the example in All the Lazy Dykes does suggest that Morrissey is dismissive of the role of a wife. I always find it interesting when a lesbian with a demanding career, e.g. a top police chief, has a partner who is essentially in the same role as the traditional wife of a man. Alice B. Toklas was an example of this with Gertrude Stein. And a high-flying heterosexual woman often has a stay-at-home husband who undertakes the duties traditionally done by wives, so this suggests that there is a need or preference for that set-up.

Of course, Morrissey isn't made of paper and glue, but would he be of use to a bride? Who can say, but it does bring me to the bride I always think about when I listen to this song - not because she was jilted but because she was the 'laze and graze' type. I knew a guy from his late teens to late twenties and he never seemed to have a girlfriend - I suppose today he'd be termed an 'incel' - he wasn't very attractive. Anyway, he had a good job and had bought a nice little house, and then suddenly he invited me to his wedding. The bride was a fat but pretty teenager, about ten years his junior, whose elderly parents seemed keen to marry her off. I visited her soon after the wedding and she literally ate an entire box of chocolates whilst waiting for hubby to come home. That, and the dead flowers in vases, put me off ever visiting again because she just seemed a lazy, vacuous lump, but at the same time I can see that the marriage might have been advantageous to both and they certainly seemed content with each other!

 

[goinghome]

I think critical theory is a bit beyond me, but the example in All the Lazy Dykes does suggest that Morrissey is dismissive of the role of a wife. I always find it interesting when a lesbian with a demanding career, e.g. a top police chief, has a partner who is essentially in the same role as the traditional wife of a man. Alice B. Toklas was an example of this with Gertrude Stein. And a high-flying heterosexual woman often has a stay-at-home husband who undertakes the duties traditionally done by wives, so this suggests that there is a need or preference for that set-up.

Of course, Morrissey isn't made of paper and glue, but would he be of use to a bride? Who can say, but it does bring me to the bride I always think about when I listen to this song - not because she was jilted but because she was the 'laze and graze' type. I knew a guy from his late teens to late twenties and he never seemed to have a girlfriend - I suppose today he'd be termed an 'incel' - he wasn't very attractive. Anyway, he had a good job and had bought a nice little house, and then suddenly he invited me to his wedding. The bride was a fat but pretty teenager, about ten years his junior, whose elderly parents seemed keen to marry her off. I visited her soon after the wedding and she literally ate an entire box of chocolates whilst waiting for hubby to come home. That, and the dead flowers in vases, put me off ever visiting again because she just seemed a lazy, vacuous lump, but at the same time I can see that the marriage might have been advantageous to both and they certainly seemed content with each other!

Interesting that you seem to be falling for the tropes you are criticising! You speak about your friend's bride being a 'lazy, vacuous lump', as if kicking someone like that down the aisle would make sense to you! Isn't it curious she went through all those chocolates while you waited with her in the house?! But who doesn't indulge in cliches sometimes? Heuristics and biases, as Kahneman put it, in Thinking Fast and Slow. The shortcuts of our minds.

Not only would you send your friend's objectionable mate packing, but it sounds like Morrissey as groom would also get his marching orders! Just shows he was onto something with that song. Judgements intrude despite best efforts.

Still, let's see what, if anything, besides singing them to sleep like no other,
Morrissey might have to offer a bride.

1. He would be willing to hold their purse

2. He would obligingly pick up the forgotten loaf of bread from the shops.

3. He serves up a fine tea-tray.

4. He'd take the dog for a walk.

5. He's easy on the eye.

What am I missing?!

There's more new scraps on gender here - https://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/morrissey’s-view-on-gender-identity.151475/page-21#post-1987603852

 

[j*e*t]

I did try to say that, whilst neither bride or groom would have been my choice, they did seem happy together. I mentioned the chocolates as an indication of why someone so young was fat already. I didn't mention that I think it's rude to eat in front of others who aren't eating (the chocolates weren't vegan. so I declined, even though I was hungry as I was on my way home from work).

There's another young married couple I think of when I listen to this song. The woman was the most beautiful person I've ever seen ( I do have a weakness for platinum blondes). She was from Manchester, but had come south to work in a hotel. The husband was in prison so I only saw his photo - very good looking, too. Another home I only visited once - a tiny cramped flat with a very large bath - my friend casually mentioned sharing baths with hubby, and I thought, ah, the riches of the poor! She strongly disapproved of 'living in sin' though, and I do wonder if that's the reason Morrissey's Polish girlfriend turned him down when he suggested moving in together.

I'm sure many fans (including me) would happily take a chance on Morrissey, but I don't see him ever walking down the aisle. I just came across this TV clip of Shirley Bassey with a comedian who's making jokes about his wife and mother-in-law that I think might indicate the type of attitude Morrissey was exposed to when younger.

 

[goinghome]

I did try to say that, whilst neither bride or groom would have been my choice, they did seem happy together. I mentioned the chocolates as an indication of why someone so young was fat already. I didn't mention that I think it's rude to eat in front of others who aren't eating (the chocolates weren't vegan. so I declined, even though I was hungry as I was on my way home from work).

There's another young married couple I think of when I listen to this song. The woman was the most beautiful person I've ever seen ( I do have a weakness for platinum blondes). She was from Manchester, but had come south to work in a hotel. The husband was in prison so I only saw his photo - very good looking, too. Another home I only visited once - a tiny cramped flat with a very large bath - my friend casually mentioned sharing baths with hubby, and I thought, ah, the riches of the poor! She strongly disapproved of 'living in sin' though, and I do wonder if that's the reason Morrissey's Polish girlfriend turned him down when he suggested moving in together.

I'm sure many fans (including me) would happily take a chance on Morrissey, but I don't see him ever walking down the aisle. I just came across this TV clip of Shirley Bassey with a comedian who's making jokes about his wife and mother-in-law that I think might indicate the type of attitude Morrissey was exposed to when younger.

A woman now working as a manager in the British Library, observed how Morrissey's songwriting plays tricks on our minds as we process lines depending on each listener's experiences, through our own preconceptions and beliefs, which are sometimes too difficult to admit to, so we blame him:

His representations of themes are reflected through the omnipresence perspective of the protagonist, while illustrating how the other is ultimately our projection by uncovering our private thoughts, and essentially laying bare and calling into dispute taboos. What his songs emphasize are the human traits such as jealousy, anger, violence and nonconformity. In psychoanalytical language, these could be aspects people might “split off ” or deny feeling. In particular, there is always an absence at the centre of the themes, be it loneliness, rejection or the ultimate absence of death...it is because Morrissey is working in the medium of pop music that his art must bear the weight and constriction of that system, thus criticism is always directed at him personally, rather than the system itself. (R.M. Brett)

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

A woman now working as a manager in the British Library, observed how Morrissey's songwriting plays tricks on our minds as we process lines depending on each listener's experiences, through our own preconceptions and beliefs, which are sometimes too difficult to admit to, so we blame him:

His representations of themes are reflected through the omnipresence perspective of the protagonist, while illustrating how the other is ultimately our projection by uncovering our private thoughts, and essentially laying bare and calling into dispute taboos. What his songs emphasize are the human traits such as jealousy, anger, violence and nonconformity. In psychoanalytical language, these could be aspects people might “split off ” or deny feeling. In particular, there is always an absence at the centre of the themes, be it loneliness, rejection or the ultimate absence of death...it is because Morrissey is working in the medium of pop music that his art must bear the weight and constriction of that system, thus criticism is always directed at him personally, rather than the system itself. (R.M. Brett)

hmmm, link please.

 

[j*e*t]

A woman now working as a manager in the British Library, observed how Morrissey's songwriting plays tricks on our minds as we process lines depending on each listener's experiences, through our own preconceptions and beliefs, which are sometimes too difficult to admit to, so we blame him:

His representations of themes are reflected through the omnipresence perspective of the protagonist, while illustrating how the other is ultimately our projection by uncovering our private thoughts, and essentially laying bare and calling into dispute taboos. What his songs emphasize are the human traits such as jealousy, anger, violence and nonconformity. In psychoanalytical language, these could be aspects people might “split off ” or deny feeling. In particular, there is always an absence at the centre of the themes, be it loneliness, rejection or the ultimate absence of death...it is because Morrissey is working in the medium of pop music that his art must bear the weight and constriction of that system, thus criticism is always directed at him personally, rather than the system itself. (R.M. Brett)

You certainly find a good amount of articles somewhere! Quite hard to follow - e.g. 'the other' in the first sentence - what does that refer to? I suppose if Morrissey hadn't been known to warn people against marriage in person, I might not take this song to represent his views, but that doesn't mean to say that I'm entirely critical. I'm just trying to understand the point of view, using my own real life experiences and outside cultural references. For example, at a family funeral earlier this year, I was introduced to the lovely Irish fiance of a distant cousin of mine. Not only is she a real natural beauty, but also a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin, and is the most charming company. The idea that a bachelor twice my cousin's age would try to dissuade him from bringing her into my family by drawing a false equivalence between marriage and slavery makes me sad.

However, I recently re-watched 'The History of Mr Polly' (1948), about a work-shy romantic whose heart really isn't in his marriage to a cousin and who talks to himself out loud throughout the film, and this put in my mind that the protagonist in 'Kick the Bride' could be talking to himself. If only Alfred Polly had paid more attention to his doubts when standing at the altar, he could have spared himself fifteen years of an unhappy marriage. Another song this could apply to is 'Jim Jim Falls', which I found uncaring until I had a dream in which I was trying to kill myself and was telling myself 'For God's sake, get on with it'. Of course, you should care about yourself, but somehow it doesn't seem as mean as if you're saying it to someone else.

 

[goinghome]

hmmm, link please.

Rachel M. Brett's paper for the 2011 book on Morrissey fandom is called Moz: art: Adorno Meets Morrissey in the Cultural Divisions. This 5* tome is still in print.

Brett bores down to the foundations, confidently lifts the covers, and patiently conveys findings in precise often profound sentences. Libraries' gain; academia's loss.

Here are further thoughts from her:

...because capitalism dominates people’s time, listening to music becomes a habit that is replayed in their free time when only standardized parts of songs like the chorus or the sounds of instruments are appropriated (Adorno 2002: 452–457). Consequently, the music becomes refigured or distorted in their memory through selective hearing. The audience internalize the effects of pop music in a psychological transference, transforming a song into a receptacle object where personal gratification can be placed. This identification represses any real desires as unrecognizable so that subordination to everyday life is maintained.

Listeners, however, are afraid to acknowledge this deception so experience the false narcissistic power of the aesthetic and expressive quality of music as a defence of their tastes (Adorno 2002: 452–462). This regressive psychological effect is reinforced by... industrial method of distribution, for as a commodity each new record that is produced invariably destroys the value and effects of the past ones. If the fetish character of exchange has alienated people to the extent that they are removed from their pleasure, listeners’ are then concealing their self-contempt and forcing themselves into submission.

and

By making manifest the system in which pop operates, Morrissey illustrates how the material form of pop can comment on its conditions of possibility. This would disrupt the predetermined identity of passive consumers indicating the dialectic relationship between the contents of the record, listening habits and the future production of records. Ultimately, Morrissey’s entire back catalogue has told the audience that to resist the structure of society deems one “maladjusted”.

As modern man in a culturally driven market, he exists as the artist cast out of Plato’s Republic for provoking excessive emotions. As modern men and women, the audience members are alienated from themselves and each other, discovering any disagreement with society is punishable by isolation.

Good, isn't it?! Really thought-provoking statements shared with authority. The part about musicians who want to conserve their natural expressiveness, being confronted with the automated cogs of the record industry, continues to be apt for Morrissey and his battles with record companies over the years.

Today's Twitchy review of the Vegas shows coincidentally says something similar:

(OK, before I get started, never, ever call Morrissey a pop star. He is not that. If you listen to the lyrics of this song, it is an attack on pop stars, not to mention other authority figures.)


Presumably Rachel M. Brett is a colleague of those putting on the current British Library exhibition, 500 years of black British musicians, including Shirley Bassey, now pictured on Morrissey's bass drum - https://www.bl.uk/press/first-exhib...music-in-britain-opens-at-the-british-library

 

[j*e*t]

Rachel M. Brett's paper for the 2011 book on Morrissey fandom is called Moz: art: Adorno Meets Morrissey in the Cultural Divisions. This 5* tome is still in print.

Brett bores down to the foundations, confidently lifts the covers, and patiently conveys findings in precise often profound sentences. Libraries' gain; academia's loss.

Here are further thoughts from her:

...because capitalism dominates people’s time, listening to music becomes a habit that is replayed in their free time when only standardized parts of songs like the chorus or the sounds of instruments are appropriated (Adorno 2002: 452–457). Consequently, the music becomes refigured or distorted in their memory through selective hearing. The audience internalize the effects of pop music in a psychological transference, transforming a song into a receptacle object where personal gratification can be placed. This identification represses any real desires as unrecognizable so that subordination to everyday life is maintained.

Listeners, however, are afraid to acknowledge this deception so experience the false narcissistic power of the aesthetic and expressive quality of music as a defence of their tastes (Adorno 2002: 452–462). This regressive psychological effect is reinforced by... industrial method of distribution, for as a commodity each new record that is produced invariably destroys the value and effects of the past ones. If the fetish character of exchange has alienated people to the extent that they are removed from their pleasure, listeners’ are then concealing their self-contempt and forcing themselves into submission.

and

By making manifest the system in which pop operates, Morrissey illustrates how the material form of pop can comment on its conditions of possibility. This would disrupt the predetermined identity of passive consumers indicating the dialectic relationship between the contents of the record, listening habits and the future production of records. Ultimately, Morrissey’s entire back catalogue has told the audience that to resist the structure of society deems one “maladjusted”.

As modern man in a culturally driven market, he exists as the artist cast out of Plato’s Republic for provoking excessive emotions. As modern men and women, the audience members are alienated from themselves and each other, discovering any disagreement with society is punishable by isolation.

Good, isn't it?! Really thought-provoking statements shared with authority. The part about musicians who want to conserve their natural expressiveness, being confronted with the automated cogs of the record industry, continues to be apt for Morrissey and his battles with record companies over the years.

Today's Twitchy review of the Vegas shows coincidentally says something similar:

(OK, before I get started, never, ever call Morrissey a pop star. He is not that. If you listen to the lyrics of this song, it is an attack on pop stars, not to mention other authority figures.)


Presumably Rachel M. Brett is a colleague of those putting on the current British Library exhibition, 500 years of black British musicians, including Shirley Bassey, now pictured on Morrissey's bass drum - https://www.bl.uk/press/first-exhib...music-in-britain-opens-at-the-british-library

Can't find the book you mention - guess we'll just have to take your word for it. Meanwhile, in wedding news, Jack Lowden, who played Morrissey in the biopic 'England is Mine', has married the actress Saoirse Ronan, whoe grandfather was best man at Morrissey's parents wedding. All best wishes to the happy couple!

 

[goinghome]

You certainly find a good amount of articles somewhere! Quite hard to follow - e.g. 'the other' in the first sentence - what does that refer to? I suppose if Morrissey hadn't been known to warn people against marriage in person, I might not take this song to represent his views, but that doesn't mean to say that I'm entirely critical. I'm just trying to understand the point of view, using my own real life experiences and outside cultural references. For example, at a family funeral earlier this year, I was introduced to the lovely Irish fiance of a distant cousin of mine. Not only is she a real natural beauty, but also a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin, and is the most charming company. The idea that a bachelor twice my cousin's age would try to dissuade him from bringing her into my family by drawing a false equivalence between marriage and slavery makes me sad.

However, I recently re-watched 'The History of Mr Polly' (1948), about a work-shy romantic whose heart really isn't in his marriage to a cousin and who talks to himself out loud throughout the film, and this put in my mind that the protagonist in 'Kick the Bride' could be talking to himself. If only Alfred Polly had paid more attention to his doubts when standing at the altar, he could have spared himself fifteen years of an unhappy marriage. Another song this could apply to is 'Jim Jim Falls', which I found uncaring until I had a dream in which I was trying to kill myself and was telling myself 'For God's sake, get on with it'. Of course, you should care about yourself, but somehow it doesn't seem as mean as if you're saying it to someone else.

Can't find the book you mention - guess we'll just have to take your word for it. Meanwhile, in wedding news, Jack Lowden, who played Morrissey in the biopic 'England is Mine', has married the actress Saoirse Ronan, whoe grandfather was best man at Morrissey's parents wedding. All best wishes to the happy couple!

Whoever we are unable to relate to as equally human is 'other'. Others are over there, outsiders, unlike us, at risk of being judged less valuable and worthy and therefore of being treated so. Hope that makes sense. That's my usual reading of it anyway.

I can't recall the instances in Autobiography where Morrissey decries marriage, and Russell Brand is the only one I heard him in an interview specifically discourage. I don't think there's any record of him ever trying to put Johnny Marr or Boz or anyone else off. Thanks to Thomas of Ringleader of the Tormentors blog, we know the phrase, Pretty Girls Makes Graves recurs over and over in Kerouac's On The Road, plus it is a traditional warning often heard from people of or prior to that generation. It makes sense to suppose, as you do, that hearing such beliefs growing up could rub off for better or worse, to a greater or lesser extent. And the outcome of marriages in one's immediate family would leave an impression. I guess many factors are at play.

The History of Mr Polly sounds charming, with a format a little like Ally McBeal. I'll try to track it down. Your dream sounds intense. Did it freak you out? Was it after watching or reading something to do with a similar story-line? That tends to affect me. However, I can compete for ghoulishness on that score. One of my brother-in-laws died a year ago, and my sister, separated from him but on friendly terms, dreamed twice of him in this past week. He had some health conditions but none expected to be fatal in the near term. In her recent dream he was wired up to tubes in a hospital bed, unable to speak, and surrounded by nurses, one of whom was mocking and doubting a good prognosis for him. My sister was visiting and confronted that nurse, at which point the other nurses cheered as they all had concerns about the nasty one. At the same time, the patient removed the equipment, sat up in bed and said, 'see what I would have had to put up with'. Which we took as a message that by his sudden death, he, and we were glad he had avoided prolonged torture for no reason.

I actually dreamed of him a year ago, close to the time he must have died, the day before we learned about it after a friend found him. in which he calmly advised there was no need to worry about dying as it was no big deal! Knowing him and my sister, I'm not sure which of them would have gone first kicking the other down the aisle! But my own mind is full of criticism of people all day long, if I'm honest about it. The only way I can converse politely in many cases, is to 'hate in moderation' on the inside, and have the act prepared on the outside! Which supports your last point, that though you should care about yourself, attacking one's own character doesn't seem as mean as if you're saying it to someone else.

And by the way, you're okay by me

Thanks for cheery news of another Irish national treasure, Saoirse Ronan, venturing into wedded bliss with Jack Lowden. Gorgeous couple. Best wishes to them indeed. Imagine if they had invited Morrissey! He's a softie really. Who do you think is the daddy of Elsie holding the record?

Book link: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/M/bo11338882.html

 

[j*e*t]

Whoever we are unable to relate to as equally human is 'other'. Others are over there, outsiders, unlike us, at risk of being judged less valuable and worthy and therefore of being treated so. Hope that makes sense. That's my usual reading of it anyway.

I can't recall the instances in Autobiography where Morrissey decries marriage, and Russell Brand is the only one I heard him in an interview specifically discourage. I don't think there's any record of him ever trying to put Johnny Marr or Boz or anyone else off. Thanks to Thomas of Ringleader of the Tormentors blog, we know the phrase, Pretty Girls Makes Graves recurs over and over in Kerouac's On The Road, plus it is a traditional warning often heard from people of or prior to that generation. It makes sense to suppose, as you do, that hearing such beliefs growing up could rub off for better or worse, to a greater or lesser extent. And the outcome of marriages in one's immediate family would leave an impression. I guess many factors are at play.

The History of Mr Polly sounds charming, with a format a little like Ally McBeal. I'll try to track it down. Your dream sounds intense. Did it freak you out? Was it after watching or reading something to do with a similar story-line? That tends to affect me. However, I can compete for ghoulishness on that score. One of my brother-in-laws died a year ago, and my sister, separated from him but on friendly terms, dreamed twice of him in this past week. He had some health conditions but none expected to be fatal in the near term. In her recent dream he was wired up to tubes in a hospital bed, unable to speak, and surrounded by nurses, one of whom was mocking and doubting a good prognosis for him. My sister was visiting and confronted that nurse, at which point the other nurses cheered as they all had concerns about the nasty one. At the same time, the patient removed the equipment, sat up in bed and said, 'see what I would have had to put up with'. Which we took as a message that by his sudden death, he, and we were glad he had avoided prolonged torture for no reason.

I actually dreamed of him a year ago, close to the time he must have died, the day before we learned about it after a friend found him. in which he calmly advised there was no need to worry about dying as it was no big deal! Knowing him and my sister, I'm not sure which of them would have gone first kicking the other down the aisle! But my own mind is full of criticism of people all day long, if I'm honest about it. The only way I can converse politely in many cases, is to 'hate in moderation' on the inside, and have the act prepared on the outside! Which supports your last point, that though you should care about yourself, attacking one's own character doesn't seem as mean as if you're saying it to someone else.

And by the way, you're okay by me

Thanks for cheery news of another Irish national treasure, Saoirse Ronan, venturing into wedded bliss with Jack Lowden. Gorgeous couple. Best wishes to them indeed. Imagine if they had invited Morrissey! He's a softie really. Who do you think is the daddy of Elsie holding the record?

Book link: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/distributed/M/bo11338882.html

I hope you're not inferring that the bride in the song isn't 'equally human'! The other instance I can recall of Morrissey being negative about getting married was when he said someting to Dermot O'Leary, upon meeting him on honeymoon in Italy, about it won't last, it never does. It interests me because I wonder if this s an intelligent, far-forward view, or a throw-back to a misogynistic era when women were seen as being less than men.

As you say, one's own upbringing can play a part. I've just finished reading Jessica Mitford's memoir 'Hons and Rebels' and there's a passage that seems pertinent about her experiences travelling for her job as a market reasearcher to Midlands and northern towns, sharing overcrowded hotel rooms with a group of female co-workers aged about 25 to 45, including ex-chorus girls, wives of business men, friends of advertising copy-writers and aspirant newspaper reportes: 'the topic of conversation was always the same: Sex and men, discussed without a trace of warmth or humour. Men, whether husbands or lovers, existed only to be milked or tricked out of every penny they were good for, and sex was the weapon so gratiously supplied by nature for the purpose' and she felt she 'had arrived at a rock bottom of degradation I didn't know existed before'. Imagine if, instead of being a happy young married woman, expecting her first child, the hearer had been an impressionable young man - quite off-putting. It reminded me of a biography of the writer Laurie Lee, who grew up as the baby in a house ful of indiscrete females. I suppose inequality of pay could have been a factor - this was in the late 1930s. However, only a year or so later, Jessica was working in a dress shop on Madison Avenue in New York, where 'most of the other sales girls were young, uniformly pretty, friendly and uncomplicated. They had none of the aura of warped and enbittered selfishness which had been such a distressing feature of some of the market researchers', so, nothing to put the men off there.

What is unclear in the song is if a bride is to be rejected because females are inherently unappealing as mates, as they would be to a homosexual or misogynist, or if the inability to connect with anyone sufficiently to make marriage work is the issue. The solidarity seems to be with the groom.

My dream was actually a flashback to an actual failed suicide attempt. These things keep recurring as a nightmare, but it was just the one time when I was telling myself to get on with it - I don't remeber ever saying that to myself explicitly at the time, so it could well have been Morrissey's lyrics creeping into my thoughts.

PS sorry, can't help with little Elsie, such a cutie, but I'm sure as much anonimity as possible is best in this knockabout world.

 

[goinghome]

I hope you're not inferring that the bride in the song isn't 'equally human'! The other instance I can recall of Morrissey being negative about getting married was when he said someting to Dermot O'Leary, upon meeting him on honeymoon in Italy, about it won't last, it never does. It interests me because I wonder if this s an intelligent, far-forward view, or a throw-back to a misogynistic era when women were seen as being less than men.

As you say, one's own upbringing can play a part. I've just finished reading Jessica Mitford's memoir 'Hons and Rebels' and there's a passage that seems pertinent about her experiences travelling for her job as a market reasearcher to Midlands and northern towns, sharing overcrowded hotel rooms with a group of female co-workers aged about 25 to 45, including ex-chorus girls, wives of business men, friends of advertising copy-writers and aspirant newspaper reportes: 'the topic of conversation was always the same: Sex and men, discussed without a trace of warmth or humour. Men, whether husbands or lovers, existed only to be milked or tricked out of every penny they were good for, and sex was the weapon so gratiously supplied by nature for the purpose' and she felt she 'had arrived at a rock bottom of degradation I didn't know existed before'. Imagine if, instead of being a happy young married woman, expecting her first child, the hearer had been an impressionable young man - quite off-putting. It reminded me of a biography of the writer Laurie Lee, who grew up as the baby in a house ful of indiscrete females. I suppose inequality of pay could have been a factor - this was in the late 1930s. However, only a year or so later, Jessica was working in a dress shop on Madison Avenue in New York, where 'most of the other sales girls were young, uniformly pretty, friendly and uncomplicated. They had none of the aura of warped and enbittered selfishness which had been such a distressing feature of some of the market researchers', so, nothing to put the men off there.

What is unclear in the song is if a bride is to be rejected because females are inherently unappealing as mates, as they would be to a homosexual or misogynist, or if the inability to connect with anyone sufficiently to make marriage work is the issue. The solidarity seems to be with the groom.

My dream was actually a flashback to an actual failed suicide attempt. These things keep recurring as a nightmare, but it was just the one time when I was telling myself to get on with it - I don't remeber ever saying that to myself explicitly at the time, so it could well have been Morrissey's lyrics creeping into my thoughts.

PS sorry, can't help with little Elsie, such a cutie, but I'm sure as much anonimity as possible is best in this knockabout world.

Hope things are on an even keel now. Am I correct in thinking we were in the same room just over a year ago i.e. in the Troxy, where you were sorely tempted to kick a woman down the aisle?!

I read a message by someone recently who’d been really looking forward to a family wedding, only to feel exhausted afterwards, which they said is formally called the let-down effect. "The let-down effect is a psychological and physical phenomenon that can cause illness or symptoms after a stressful period," says WebMD. "It can happen when you finally have time to relax, such as after a big life transition, a vacation, or a stressful event at work."

When people feel below par, there is less generosity towards others. This collapse after exertion can happen even when great results have been achieved. Indeed, the higher the accomplishment, the bigger the crash. The bubble burst is painful after build-up, dedication, hype, media attention, and adrenaline. Many Olympic contestants will go through crippling ‘post-Olympic blues’ after passing the milestone they singularly focused on. 8 times gold medal winning swimmer Michael Phelps told of becoming suicidal: “It’s basically… you get to like the edge of a cliff, like ‘Cool now what? Oh, I guess I've got to wait four more years to have the chance to do it again’."

The idea that obtaining something will bring lasting happiness is sometimes known as the arrival fallacy , leaving people feeling deflated, as if wrong-footed, and compelled to achieve more to re-experience that hit. In his book When Relaxation Is Hazardous to Your Health, Marc Schoen says: "Once the stress is over, we typically take a break from the hectic pace and may want to spend more time relaxing or sleeping. After all, isn’t relaxation healthy? But when we de-stress too rapidly, it can lead to biochemical changes that actually result in a weakened immunity, leaving us vulnerable to illness or physical symptoms."

Advice offered is to exercise; breathe; enjoy the journey; celebrate each stage; and let go of excess perpetual ambition. Relationships never run completely smooth either but may benefit from everyday adjustment. Edna O’ Brien married an established writer, Ernest Gebler, had 2 children, and split after her major success depicting young women making the best of things in milieus of sexism, domineering, exploitation etc. I remember when a book came out with many complaints about Ernest, who was still alive but then in a nursing home, one reviewer commented that it should never have been published. I was once in company at a public event with her son Carlo Gebler, also a writer, who told those present he married a woman whose husband had committed suicide shortly before; adding the comment that if a person finds love for at least a year or so in their lives, that’s gold in itself.

In an online talk I partly caught, Gabor Mate said some people think all elephants slob around all day, pacing occasionally and fetching some food only to sit again, on visiting the zoo. But elephants in the wild act completely differently, just as people are products of their circumstances. Human nature cannot be assumed from one frame.

Thanks for the Jessica Mitford details. It’s possible she heard one or two colleagues soullessly discuss sex and money and then generalised to the group, though considering unequal pay and economic opportunities for women, not to mention their more precarious biological make-up, which increases with children on the horizon or at home, why wouldn’t they scheme for survival too?

Your take on Elsie is best. On Morrissey’s comment to Dermot O Leary, do you not think it could have been said in jest, with even a slight tinge of jealousy, or of indirect caution to not take things for granted? Numerous interpretations are possible.

One more story, from the vicinity of the Troxy. While in London, we paid a visit to Dirty Dick’s pub. Eighteenth-century merchant and handsome player was due to marry but when his bride-to-be died that morning, he closed the door and never washed either himself or his house again. Who knows if the marriage would have lasted! This photo of the interior seems to be decades old.

Just shows the many directions life, and perceptions of it, can turn. Charles Dickens is supposed to have based Great Expectations on that tragedy. Even if some levels of achievement and sustenance can certainly contribute to contentment, beware Great Expectations, I guess!

 

[j*e*t]

Many thanks for your reply - thoughtful and interesting, as always. Yes. thank you, all this trouble was long ago and the keel is even (though sorely tested by Morrissey's PDAs with certain superfans, I' m sure I'll survive!). As Morrissey says, be good to yourself. Have a little faith in people, too, they can help. It wasn't me at the Troxy. Ironic as it may seem, it has never even occurred to me to be violent to others.

I had another look at Morrissey's autobiography to see if it did chime with 'Kick the Bride'. Obviously, his parent's marriage ended badly, but when it came to Johnny Marr's wedding, Morrissey writes: 'The ceremony went well. I, with the infinite privilege of passing the wedding ring...' (p.193), so that seems positive. Later, he sees a razzle-dazzle wedding in Italy and says it seems like a great deal of trouble for everyone and 'I cannot imagine giving any more to life than I have already given. I can see through the human heart, and I know that life's biggest prize is to have the day before you as yours alone to do with as you wish' (p.397). Self-containment seems to be preferred here. Then, when thinks he has fallen in love with Kristeen Young, he writes of her great qualities, including not planning 'to waste her life making tea for in-laws' (p.421). And then the very last line of the book about a separated female voice calling out to him on the tour and 'I looked the other way' (p.457). Meaning what, exactly?

Anyway, must rush, catch you later, thanks again, bye for now.

 

[goinghome]

Many thanks for your reply - thoughtful and interesting, as always. Yes. thank you, all this trouble was long ago and the keel is even (though sorely tested by Morrissey's PDAs with certain superfans, I' m sure I'll survive!). As Morrissey says, be good to yourself. Have a little faith in people, too, they can help. It wasn't me at the Troxy. Ironic as it may seem, it has never even occurred to me to be violent to others.

I had another look at Morrissey's autobiography to see if it did chime with 'Kick the Bride'. Obviously, his parent's marriage ended badly, but when it came to Johnny Marr's wedding, Morrissey writes: 'The ceremony went well. I, with the infinite privilege of passing the wedding ring...' (p.193), so that seems positive. Later, he sees a razzle-dazzle wedding in Italy and says it seems like a great deal of trouble for everyone and 'I cannot imagine giving any more to life than I have already given. I can see through the human heart, and I know that life's biggest prize is to have the day before you as yours alone to do with as you wish' (p.397). Self-containment seems to be preferred here. Then, when thinks he has fallen in love with Kristeen Young, he writes of her great qualities, including not planning 'to waste her life making tea for in-laws' (p.421). And then the very last line of the book about a separated female voice calling out to him on the tour and 'I looked the other way' (p.457). Meaning what, exactly?

Anyway, must rush, catch you later, thanks again, bye for now.

Good that things are shipshape. Thanks too for interesting exchange. Sorry for misremembering about the Troxy. Maybe it was Rufusindigo? Another solo user anyway, who posted about going to their seat, only to be moved out of it by a female acquaintance of Morrissey!

Was Morrissey in love with Kristeen Young in the shiny happy showbiz sense? Beyond that, awkward triangles could have resulted, I think. His comment about her not making tea for in-laws, strikes me as more feminist than most feminists, in that he's rejoicing that this talented person took the opportunity to fulfill herself artistically rather than allow herself be nudged onto traditional grooves. Which is the sort of advice given in All The Lazy Dykes. So this can't count.

That leaves us only with the enigmatic anecdote about him consciously ignoring a female on her own presumably making eyes at him. What is the message here? That he was tempted but resisted? Or in the context of his public image, is it an example of sacrifices he makes, whereby signs of people being attracted to him are noted and valued by him but cannot be pursued? Some girls are bigger than others?! What do you think? Whatever it's about, I can't detect a specifically misogynistic judgement from it. If anything, it's a sad little tale about one of the prices of not only stardom but of concentrating on any particular path, which requires choices to be made.

Pier Paula Martino wrote about the dual sexuality of Morrissey's voice:

The very peculiar iconicity of the group’s visual choices was matched by the complex iconicity of the singer’s voice. Morrissey’s, indeed, was an extremely peculiar voice, with a grain (Barthes 1977a) in between male and female; more precisely, Morrissey’s voice was that of the Northern Woman, characterized by “a certain intensity mixed with a certain breeziness, a certain desperation mixed with a lot of self-irony” (Simpson 2004: 49). Hopps identifies a double side of Morrissey’s voice, one connected with a kind of dandyism represented by a tendency to sing with a correct, clear diction and the other with the carnivalesque, which, as we have already seen, “is most apparent in his penchant for performed noises: groaning, sneezing, stage belching, spoof vomiting, etc […]. Hence, in contrast to the ‘health and efficiency’ of New Pop, where the body is a source of pleasure and pride, in Morrissey’s songs it becomes a source of trouble and embarrassment” (Hopps 2009: 24). In this way the singer gives particular prominence to the unpoetic and the low within the realm of pop itself. Besides, these sounds are iconic themselves because they exceed the symbolic, that is codified aspect of verbal language, to access a realm of motivated, often onomatopoeic signification. Other aspects of Morrissey’s unconventional singing are represented by his use of melisma (the singing of multiple notes to a single syllable of the text), yodelling, which evidences “a daring and comical appropriation of the kitsch” (Hopps 2009: 26) and his trademark falsetto, through which, interestingly, he is able to access female territory through a male body.

It is important to note how the very choice of calling himself just Morrissey expressed the artist’s desire to reject the name as sign of gender identification, in order to inhabit a sort of borderline from which to address outsiders of both sexes.

That's from ‘Vicar In A Tutu’: Dialogism, Iconicity and the Carnivalesque in Morrissey, 2011

Is he sufficient unto him/herself so; containing multitudes? This at least is how he crafts his art, from all available perspectives:

The unique appeal of Morrissey’s persona is, in short, given by the artist’s capacity to present himself in dialogical terms, that is, using – often through direct quotation – multiple discourses at once. As we have seen, Morrissey is not just a “living sign” but also and foremost a “living text”, that is, a space in which different signs, different voices and discourses speak to each other. If according to Brummett “a text is a set of signs related to each other insofar as their meanings all contribute to the same set of effects or functions”, then Morrissey stands as a “multimodal text” (see G. Kress and T. van Leeuwen 2001), one in which the visual, the musical and the literary meet to articulate a complex critique of the cultural and political establishment. In the mid-1990s, this very establishment decreed the end of Morrissey’s solo experience...

 

[goinghome]

“It occurred to me that within popular music if ever there were any records that discussed marriage they were always from the female’s standpoint,” he offered. “Female singers singing to women: whenever there were any songs saying ‘do not marry, stay single, self-preservation, etc’ I thought it was about time there was a male voice speaking directly to another male saying that marriage was a waste of time… that, in fact, it was ‘absolutely nothing’.”

William, It Was Really Nothing: Why This Smiths Song Is Still Quite Something - Dig!

Brief, brash and beautifully-executed, William, It Was Really Nothing is a glorious Smiths single that still holds up today.

www.thisisdig.com

 

[Light Housework]

Yes... I have feared marriage since my later teenage years. As my 20's went on I wanted less and less to be married because I didn't trust anybody I met. I've been married for only a little over a month now (together for 7 years), and were very happy, we love spending time together and I trust him with all my heart and soul. That fear nags at me a bit, but it holds no weight, he's an amazing man. I do believe in our vows we wrote for each other.. a lovely "death do us part" situation. Whew.

"That fear nags at me a bit, but it holds no weight, he's an amazing man."

Does that fear still nag at you or has it dissolved?

 

[Ashley_TakeABow]

"That fear nags at me a bit, but it holds no weight, he's an amazing man."

Does that fear still nag at you or has it dissolved?

It nags and nags and nags away.
I annoy myself lol.