Inside information on Moz, Marr & management

[Redacted]

This has always been my view, too. How can you love (or hate) someone you don’t know? I like most of his songs and enjoy listening to him singing them. That’s it. He’s a pop star, like Michael Stipe, or Noel Gallagher, or Jarvis Cocker, or MES, or George Michael, or Axl Rose, or hundreds of others. That old spiel about knowing him because it’s all in the songs is just silly old nonsense desperately lonely fans tell themselves in search of some sort of comfort… “No one else likes me, but me and Morrissey… we get each… we’re the same..”
Which is ok. Bit sad, but ok.

It's really strange to me that even if people feel that depth of emotion, they ascribe it to others as well. These people think all of Mozi's songs are autobiographical and mostly about Johnny, both of which are not true, yet they ascribe these feelings and thoughts to Morrissey as well, in their own fantasy of him, so they can think they are like him. It is desperate and lonely but we aren't all desperate and lonely and I guess they need us to be.
Eponymous by REM might be my most listened to album ever, and I would never say I love Michael Stipe or he totally gets me, I just really like the songs.

 

[gashonthenail]

I'm glad this site isn't an echo chamber one way or the other when it comes to Morrissey.

Well said.

 

[Amy]

When I was 15 or 16, I hero-worshipped Morrissey. It was like he opened up a new world to me and I wanted to buy every book, film, photo, I wanted to know everything. I bought "By Grand Central Station I Sat Down and Wept", I bought everything by Shelagh Delaney, I started watching all the 60s kitchen sink films. Moz had a completely absurd, intense relationship with his own musical heroes from childhood so it's no surprise that lots of his fans developed something similar with him, and I think he always wanted that to happen.

And then? It's like "Rubber Ring" - you grow older, you grow out of idolising people and things just change. I can see people at that earlier stage of the journey and think "yeah, I used to think like that". I don't like it when the more jaded fans turn around to new ones and try to detract from things they've already enjoyed - don't see him live, the band is shit, everything was better in 1992, etc, etc. Let people enjoy it if they can, we weren't all there in the beginning.

I look at Morrissey now as someone who isn't an 'outsider' because he wants to be, if he ever was. Just a person trapped by his own demons, still as hung up on the charts and on fame as he was at 25, and unable to leave the treadmill and just ENJOY his life. His public fall from grace has been incredible. I feel for him because he meant a lot to me when life was shit, but I don't want to follow his path.

 

[Amy]

These people think all of Mozi's songs are autobiographical and mostly about Johnny

Guilty, all day long .
Of course that's an exaggeration but Morrissey has more or less been writing about the same themes forever. Loneliness, depression, the woes of being unwanted or misunderstood, the rest of humanity being generally shit - that's his thing isn't it? He never moved on from his fixations with fame, death, old Hollywood, etc - if anything he seems to be regressing. Johnny is another of his fixations, and those days of the gold discs. Can't let it go.

 

[gashonthenail]

His public fall from grace has been incredible. I feel for him because he meant a lot to me when life was shit, but I don't want to follow his path.

What public fall from grace? I know I have said this before but I think with the general public Morrissey's views and opinions make him a hero. They haven't made him a pariah. That is how the mainstream media like to label him. Just like the Lotus Eaters, the amount of people I have heard saying - I'm not a big fan of his music, but he is absolutely right on how the response to the Arena bombing was manipulated, for example, or what he said about London no longer feeling like London due to mass immigration. These are views and opinions that 80% of the general public would absolutely share. The problem for Morrissey has always been, will always be, that it is mostly the other 20% of the population who think such views and opinions are objectionable, who tend to write as music journalists, shout loudest on social media, work in the music industry, or purchase and consume music.

 

[Amy]

What public fall from grace? I know I have said this before but I think with the general public Morrissey's views and opinions make him a hero. They haven't made him a pariah. That is how the mainstream media like to label him. Just like the Lotus Eaters, the amount of people I have heard saying - I'm not a big fan of his music, but he is absolutely right on how the response to the Arena bombing was manipulated, for example, or what he said about London no longer feeling like London due to mass immigration. These are views and opinions that 80% of the general public would absolutely share. The problem for Morrissey has always been, will always be, that it is mostly the other 20% of the population who think such views and opinions are objectionable, who tend to write as music journalists, shout loudest on social media, work in the music industry, or purchase and consume music.

I'm not Malarkey so I'm not going to waste 20 pages arguing about whatever leftist conspiracy you think is at hand, please keep it in the politics thread. You know exactly what I was referring to.

 

[gashonthenail]

I'm not Malarkey so I'm not going to waste 20 pages arguing about whatever leftist conspiracy you think is at hand, please keep it in the politics thread. You know exactly what I was referring to.

You appeared to be referring to Moz's (alleged) pariah status? Merely pointing out that this is a construct of the media. For 80% of the general population - he talks complete common sense. To describe that as a 'public fall from grace' is inaccurate. But yes, he has certainly had a fall from grace with the media. There was a time when he was the darling of the music press. Not any more, clearly.

 

[DaveJCarr]

You appeared to be referring to Moz's (alleged) pariah status? Merely pointing out that this is a construct of the media. For 80% of the general population - he talks complete common sense. To describe that as a 'public fall from grace' is inaccurate. But yes, he has certainly had a fall from grace with the media. There was a time when he was the darling of the music press. Not any more, clearly.

"Public fall from grace" is itself a term of art and not something that can be proven to be accurate or inaccurate. Besides, take Moz politics completely out of it, and casual observer could come to the conclusion just over his screeching over the (lack of a lucrative reunion and the copyright stuff that he has tumbled, and well and truly earned his face plant, all on his own with nary a nudge from the media. He stomped his entitled foot and kicked up the dust storm of misinformation all on his petulant lonesome. But there's no convincing someone who wants to see a culture war everywhere behind everything that there is no war, that Morrissey's actions, inactions, and insatiable appetite for the mainstream fawning - that he so churlishly mocks for its alleged "woke "mindlessness is the much clearer, fuller and far less conspiratorial answer

 

[JoeSellMozza]

Puh, what‘s going on here? It‘s quite boring, isn’t it?

 

[gashonthenail]

"Public fall from grace" is itself a term of art and not something that can be proven to be accurate or inaccurate. Besides, take Moz politics completely out of it, and casual observer could come to the conclusion just over his screeching over the (lack of a lucrative reunion and the copyright stuff that he has tumbled, and well and truly earned his face plant, all on his own with nary a nudge from the media. He stomped his entitled foot and kicked up the dust storm of misinformation all on his petulant lonesome. But there's no convincing someone who wants to see a culture war everywhere behind everything that there is no war, that Morrissey's actions, inactions, and insatiable appetite for the mainstream fawning - that he so churlishly mocks for its alleged "woke "mindlessness is the much clearer, fuller and far less conspiratorial answer

Your post is an example of what I was trying to get at - what do we mean by 'public fall from grace'? Are we talking about his choice of pin? Are we talking about his comments on immigration? Or his Der Speigel interview? Now we seem to be talking about the fact that he can't bring about a reunion with Johnny? Johnny posted a pic of a certain politician to explain why he didn't think that was going to happen. So it appears Johnny wouldn't 'take Moz's politics completely out of it' as you suggest above. Morrissey has always behaved like an autistic diva. Doing a disappearing act when he wants. Communicating by fax. Gobbing off in interviews. Falling out with record companies. Pissing off friends and 'those 'who tried' to love him. Twas ever thus.

 

[Mike Rourke]

When I was 15 or 16, I hero-worshipped Morrissey. It was like he opened up a new world to me and I wanted to buy every book, film, photo, I wanted to know everything. I bought "By Grand Central Station I Sat Down and Wept", I bought everything by Shelagh Delaney, I started watching all the 60s kitchen sink films. Moz had a completely absurd, intense relationship with his own musical heroes from childhood so it's no surprise that lots of his fans developed something similar with him, and I think he always wanted that to happen.

And then? It's like "Rubber Ring" - you grow older, you grow out of idolising people and things just change. I can see people at that earlier stage of the journey and think "yeah, I used to think like that". I don't like it when the more jaded fans turn around to new ones and try to detract from things they've already enjoyed - don't see him live, the band is shit, everything was better in 1992, etc, etc. Let people enjoy it if they can, we weren't all there in the beginning.

I look at Morrissey now as someone who isn't an 'outsider' because he wants to be, if he ever was. Just a person trapped by his own demons, still as hung up on the charts and on fame as he was at 25, and unable to leave the treadmill and just ENJOY his life. His public fall from grace has been incredible. I feel for him because he meant a lot to me when life was shit, but I don't want to follow his path.

I'd say he probably is enjoying his life, relatively speaking. There have been times in the past when he hasn't toured for years - now he's out touring two or three times per year, playing enjoyable concerts to an appreciative audience. A good mix of Smiths and 'solo' songs, and quite a few new(ish) ones so he's not just a nostalgia act. I think having two women in the band has probably helped things considerably (I really wish Fiona would ask him about that). He's looking OK for his age. Better than Robert Smith and Paul Weller at least (of similar vintage) and his singing sounds great. I expect releasing a new album is (unfortunately for us) now pretty unappealing. There'd be tons of reviews, most of them attacking his character in some way (rightly or wrongly), and the sales/chart performances are likely to be depressingly small. I'd enjoy his current activities while you can. A new tour and a new setlist every few months is pretty great especially if you were following him in the barren years.

 

[Amy]

You appeared to be referring to Moz's (alleged) pariah status? Merely pointing out that this is a construct of the media. For 80% of the general population - he talks complete common sense. To describe that as a 'public fall from grace' is inaccurate. But yes, he has certainly had a fall from grace with the media. There was a time when he was the darling of the music press. Not any more, clearly.

It's true that the media builds people up and knocks them down. But Morrissey's album sales aren't a construct - his cancelled tours, arguments with record labels, they're not inventions. As for his popularity with the man in the pub, well... unless this "80%" are also buying his records and attending his shows, it just doesn't matter. He might be a Daily Mail hero for five minutes when he speaks about immigration, but then he'll go back to being the poof from The Smiths who sang Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now. That's how bigots work. That's who he is to the 'general population', not some kind of martyr.

 

[gashonthenail]

I'd say he probably is enjoying his life, relatively speaking. There have been times in the past when he hasn't toured for years - now he's out touring two or three times per year, playing enjoyable concerts to an appreciative audience. A good mix of Smiths and 'solo' songs, and quite a few new(ish) ones so he's not just a nostalgia act. I think having two women in the band has probably helped things considerably (I really wish Fiona would ask him about that). He's looking OK for his age. Better than Robert Smith and Paul Weller at least (of similar vintage) and his singing sounds great. I expect releasing a new album is (unfortunately for us) now pretty unappealing. There'd be tons of reviews, most of them attacking his character in some way (rightly or wrongly), and the sales/chart performances are likely to be depressingly small. I'd enjoy his current activities while you can. A new tour and a new setlist every few months is pretty great especially if you were following him in the barren years.

I would agree with all of that - apart from the sales/charts performance comment. I think Bonfire could be his first number 1 album in the UK since Ringleader. A public return to grace? But it looks like that may never be tested. Not for the foreseeable anyway.

 

[DaveJCarr]

Your post is an example of what I was trying to get at - what do we mean by 'public fall from grace'? Are we talking about his choice of pin? Are we talking about his comments on immigration? Or his Der Speigel interview? Now we seem to be talking about the fact that he can't bring about a reunion with Johnny? Johnny posted a pic of a certain politician to explain why he didn't think that was going to happen. So it appears Johnny wouldn't 'take Moz's politics completely out of it' as you suggest above. Morrissey has always behaved like an autistic diva. Doing a disappearing act when he wants. Communicating by fax. Gobbing off in interviews. Falling out with record companies. Pissing off friends and 'those 'who tried' to love him. Twas ever thus.

I don't think Johnny has to take the politics out of it or anyone does. My only point is there are apolitical reasons to account for the fall from the grace theqt have nothing to do with any of those poltics. And some frustration with him is probably rooted in that and not with the politics at all.And as s consistent or common as some of those unreliable behaviors might have been, the unprofessionalism The begging to be the center of popular attention while decrying the populace and the industry. Those traits get more desperate and sad that more time passes.

 

[Mike Rourke]

I would agree with all of that - apart from the sales/charts performance comment. I think Bonfire could be his first number 1 album in the UK since Ringleader. A public return to grace? But it looks like that may never be tested. Not for the foreseeable anyway.

Shed 7 had two number 1 albums last year having never managed it back in the day, so it's become a pretty meaningless metric. With no radio support (as was the case for Dog on a Chain) he could probably sell 5,000-10,000 in week 1 which is enough for #1 perhaps once every 4 or 5 weeks so it's just your luck on what else is out.
If Radio 2 decided it was OK to play his new songs again, it would probably sell 2 or 3 times as many, making a #1 a lot more likely.

 

[gashonthenail]

Shed 7 had two number 1 albums last year having never managed it back in the day, so it's become a pretty meaningless metric. With no radio support (as was the case for Dog on a Chain) he could probably sell 5,000-10,000 in week 1 which is enough for #1 perhaps once every 4 or 5 weeks so it's just your luck on what else is out.
If Radio 2 decided it was OK to play his new songs again, it would probably sell 2 or 3 times as many, making a #1 a lot more likely.

That is very true. But still, it wouldn't be bad for an artist who apparently has pariah status, and has to be 'separated from his art' etc. ad nauseam.

 

[SuedeMoz]

I would agree with all of that - apart from the sales/charts performance comment. I think Bonfire could be his first number 1 album in the UK since Ringleader. A public return to grace? But it looks like that may never be tested. Not for the foreseeable anyway.

Speaking of BOT you can add the Miley debacle to the fall from grace. The leaked emails (which he never claimed were false) were not only embarrassing in his groveling for Miley's support, they showed just how unreliable and dishonest he can be. You realize that BOT not getting released falls 100% on him, right? He doesn't have the media to blame for any of that.

 

[Redacted]

Guilty, all day long .
Of course that's an exaggeration but Morrissey has more or less been writing about the same themes forever. Loneliness, depression, the woes of being unwanted or misunderstood, the rest of humanity being generally shit - that's his thing isn't it? He never moved on from his fixations with fame, death, old Hollywood, etc - if anything he seems to be regressing. Johnny is another of his fixations, and those days of the gold discs. Can't let it go.

I do not think you are one of these people who act like they know Morrissey's every thought to create some sort of false intimacy or relationship with him. You said above you were obsessed as a teen, but that's completely normal, and then you outgrew it. There are people who have not outgrown it. I've said it before, I think you have a very balanced view of things. I never thought about what you are saying here about how Morrissey has never moved past his fixations and being misunderstood etc. like he is emotionally stunted and yes, still stuck back in time regarding Johnny. It's as though he still thinks he can do and say whatever he wants to Johnny, and Johnny will still be there, it's like he forgot or wants to forget Johnny left because he really had to. So, the fans I speak of are really the same, they will even hate Johnny on Morrissey's behalf and attack anyone who criticizes Morrissey. You aren't that person.
I do think new fans should be encouraged to see him and I do, I don't expect anyone to feel as I do. What I don't like it when a new fan comes along and tells you to stop criticizing him because 1. anyone should be able to express their opinion 2.Some of us have been at this for decades and know a lot more about him than someone who just became a fan, so they couldn't really understand.
I have said things in general like if you didn't see the first solo tours you wouldn't get it, and people have said to me if you haven't seen The Smiths, you wouldn't get it - and I respect the latter opinion because I think it's true.
Sometimes new fans get told they are in the honeymoon phase, we've all been there, and I think that is fair because when you start to realize or learn some of the things he's said and done, it's a huge disappointment, so a little forewarning may be helpful.
To me, it's just really wild that there are strangers here attacking other strangers because they don't like something they said about Morrissey or they dare to talk about other music.

 

[gashonthenail]

Speaking of BOT you can add the Miley debacle to the fall from grace. The leaked emails (which he never claimed were false) were not only embarrassing in his groveling for Miley's support, they showed just how unreliable and dishonest he can be. You realize that BOT not getting released falls 100% on him, right? He doesn't have the media to blame for any of that.

Devious, truculent, and unreliable. If the cap fits. My guess is though people could have said that just as much about Morrissey aged 19 or 20, as Morrissey aged 65. He could have those words on his gravestone.

 

[Thewlis]

Yes, some people simply cannot understand or accept that Morrissey will never change.

Which I can understand from new fans, but older fans really should know better.