Morrissey’s view on gender identity

[Anonymous]

 

[another singing voice]

Nobody seems to have a problem with ‘trans’* men using the male toilets and changing rooms. Really shows where peoples point of interest is doesn’t it…

howdy! the conversation and discussion is always about men as women lurking around womens loos .... back to your comment about the point of interest only being concerned with genitalia, which I agree with.

I think its more of taboo about transexual men, ppl say its because they don't like be sexualised....? well thats easy to say and kinda lazy thinking. Transexual men, I would guess, would be more rare and start from a young age. If think about it, its not hard to understand.
The news bullshit makes it worse to actually look and try and understand these people properly. I do actually think these things are rare, because i've never met anyone who has seriously been through a sex change, but i'met ppl who are 'butch' , and girlish looking men. But really not very many... my town is very much down the middle road, thats why nobody talks about anything new, my school was abc, then xyz.

 

[Marlon Brandyo]

New guest, Marlon.

I don't care at all about how other people look like, or what they are. If I ever met someone who was in my changing rooms, and I even had the slighted idea that they were transgender, I would mind my own business - why would I be concerned about their private parts. I am not bothered at all! I am nearly 100% confident that I would never get assaulted by someone just because they were transgender, and I would never assault someone either.

I think that even if someone is nasty, you still have too learn to tolerate them. If someone is kind to me, then I have to hold them close. I think Morrissey thinks that everyone needs to grow from their own soil. Morrissey thinks deeply about life and that is why he is gentle with people, he picks his words wisely. Even if he did write VIVA LA HATE (Long Live Hate) lol.

Life is too short. Sexual assault is just one out of thousands of bad things that could happen to a person - your body is a battle ground.

 

[gashonthenail]

When talking about safe spaces, the issue is not about trans people - trans people are not a risk to kids, and trans people are not a risk to women.
But some men are a risk to kids, and some men are a risk to women.
The issue is about keeping men out of women's spaces. It's not about trans people. It's not about transphobia.

 

[gashonthenail]

I'm disappointed Russell Brand doesn't seem to have expressed concern about his alleged victims' experiences, which I feel would be consistent with the humane ethical positions he's assumed in recent years. Yet as Sea Salt & others pointed out, two things could be true at once here; abusive behavior by him in the past, and major societal forces using that now in an effort to shut him up.

His legal advice would have been to say absolutely nothing for now. Kevin Spacey commented on the Rapp allegation very early on, saying he could not remember anything about it, and apologising to Rapp - that was then interpreted as an admission of guilt. Brand would be mad to say anything specifically about anonymous allegations.

 

[Orange Crush]

That's an easy one...

Haven't got time to watch it, going to watch Fifty Shades of Grey this afternoon.

 

[gashonthenail]

I have never experienced a duller period in my 20+ years as a Moz fan. His career is in shambles, his new music is some of his worst yet, there are no news except the occasional bad news. No interviews. Nothing. Absolute bollocks.

Oh, come on, Gregor, he's recovering from dengue fever...

 

[Marlon Brandyo]

When talking about safe spaces, the issue is not about trans people - trans people are not a risk to kids, and trans people are not a risk to women.
But some men are a risk to kids, and some men are a risk to women.
The issue is about keeping men out of women's spaces. It's not about trans people. It's not about transphobia.

Well that makes sense, and there is nothing to disagree with there. Shared unisex toilets and changing rooms have and don't work, having private toilets and changing rooms that are in an individual space that are unisex work, aka a cubical with a basin, toilet, shower etc. which has a lock on the door, all the cubicals are lined up in an open corridor and there is privacy when you lock the door.

 

[gashonthenail]

Just curious. So what is your definition of a trans person in regards to what you said above?




And now, in regards to what you said here above.

What is your definition of a trans woman, one that naturally feels they should use a woman’s bathroom?

The word 'trans' is vague and imprecise. It can mean lots of different things - from someone who has taken hormones and had major surgery - right through to someone who just feels like they are in the wrong body but has had no 'treatment'. And that is the problem. Whereas we all know what we mean by 'men' and 'women'. So when it comes to safeguarding, the definition of 'trans' is irrelevant. That's why they are called women's sex-based rights.
Bathrooms also I don't think are the crucial issue. What is much more important are things like rape crisis centres, female wards in hospital, and female prisons.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

When talking about safe spaces, the issue is not about trans people - trans people are not a risk to kids, and trans people are not a risk to women.

So what bathroom should these trans people use?

But some men are a risk to kids, and some men are a risk to women.
The issue is about keeping men out of women's spaces. It's not about trans people. It's not about transphobia.

 

[gashonthenail]

So what bathroom should these trans people use?

Doesn't bother me. Doesn't affect me. Ask women. Let women speak.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

When talking about safe spaces, the issue is not about trans people - trans people are not a risk to kids, and trans people are not a risk to women.

So what bathroom should these trans people use?

Doesn't bother me. Doesn't affect me. Ask women. Let women speak.

Yes, but none of the issues you’ve brought up in this thread affect you.

Ok, cool. Then you don’t mind trans women
using a woman-only space.

 

[gashonthenail]

Yes, but none of the issues you’ve brought up in this thread affect you.

Ok, cool. Then you don’t mind trans women
using a woman-only space.

I don't have strong views about bathrooms. Many women do not like 'unisex' bathrooms - but I suppose ultimately people do have a choice about where they go, as long as they are not too far from home, or there is another toilet available somewhere else that is not unisex!
I do have strong views about places accessed by vulnerable women who don't necessarily have a 'choice' about whether or not to access those spaces - e.g. rape crisis centres, inpatient facilities, in particular for those involuntarily committed, and prisons.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I don't have strong views about bathrooms. Many women do not like 'unisex' bathrooms - but I suppose ultimately we do have a choice about where we go, as long as we are not too far from home, or there is another toilet available somewhere else that is women-only.

sorry. lost me on the latter part.

I do have strong views about places accessed by vulnerable women who don't necessarily have a 'choice' about whether or nor to access those spaces - e.g. rape crisis centres, inpatient facilities, in particular for those involuntarily committed, and prisons.

Yes. But you had an opinion on a subject that didn’t affect you. Anyway …

Agree. Woman only groups and spaces should definitely be made available.

It’s simply a bit strange, that the concern for a trans person’s safety in regards to them being made to use men’s bathrooms hasn’t been brought up.

 

[goinghome]

Agree. Woman only groups and spaces should definitely be made available.

It’s simply a bit strange, that the concern for a trans person’s safety in regards to them being made to use men’s bathrooms hasn’t been brought up.

It has now, and is a worthy concern too. What do you think? Are unisex loos the answer? Whether we like it or not, like much going on these days ('when I were a lad..')

Nobody seems to have a problem with ‘trans’* men using the male toilets and changing rooms. Really shows where peoples point of interest is doesn’t it…

I am also aware that the US is a very patriarchal country, religion is still strong, the American dream is still there. I am from the UK, I think there is another type of dream going on but doesn’t involve politics and a vision of the perfect life and body, that is passing over from America. I have noticed that American social politics are extreme, and are either or, almost vivid either way. The UK is becoming more like the US, sadly because the UK is loosing its culture without realising it. Although I love ya, wish you’d stay where you are. American history isn’t as long and complex as the UK, but is very interesting and seeped in screen and set, not in an obvious way.

Interesting what you say about the American vision of life and body being exported to the 'empire'. I think the sparkly-pink-plastic-laden film Barbie started to address similar expectations and standards but only seemed to loop back around to saying that ultimately the masquerade, as Germaine Greer puts it , is satisfying enough.

I don’t believe that somebody can say to me, “You are not a woman, you’re a cis-woman, I’m the real thing.” I’m very happy to believe that men make better women than women do because we know from what it takes to turn you into a woman. We used to call it conditioning, nobody even mentions that anymore, where you learn how to dress, how to speak, how to love pink and all the other things that make you a girlie girl. We had to learn all of those things and they are fake, they are a masquerade....And now we have to accept the masquerade as the thing that is more real than we are at this point, as the author of the Female Eunuch, I can’t do anything else....

His legal advice would have been to say absolutely nothing for now. Kevin Spacey commented on the Rapp allegation very early on, saying he could not remember anything about it, and apologising to Rapp - that was then interpreted as an admission of guilt. Brand would be mad to say anything specifically about anonymous allegations.

I figured that would be a common response alright but Russell Brand is an uncommon person, very articulate, able to express emotions on the wing, who has built up a profile based on community, love, forgiveness, truth, healing and so on. You'd think this great challenge would be the ideal opportunity for him to conjure up another moral lesson? However, I guess there are plenty baying for blood, have been for years, and he knows it. But still. It's a hard one. Hopefully he has support, having openly admitted mental illness and other vulnerabilities. Hopefully women hurt by him have too.

 

[Anonymous]

If Morrissey posted on Morrissey-Central tomorrow under the banner

'I HAVE BROKEN THE VEIL, I AM STEPHANIE MORRISSEY'

I would think, well you hid that well - and I would be alarmed and bewildered.

I don't think he has that stance on gender identity, he seems to be an observer and he is a voice and confidence pillar for those that have neither.

 

[Mary Jane]

Apparently there was a joke going round the Tavistock that - if we keep going like this there won't be any gay kids left.

Do you have proof they actually said this, what source?

I know that most departments of work,

education and health care centres.. have a odd corruption ethic running

through the margins and the funny employee. Then it seems the

whole institution are damaged on the heads of the group that screwed it up!

I've been there or shall I say outta there, not fast enough.



Original intentions often look unrecognisable when they come to closing time.

**********************************************************************

 

[Mary Jane]

STEPHANIE MORRISSEY'

Stephanie Morrissey is actually a really cool name

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

It has now, and is a worthy concern too. What do you think? Are unisex loos the answer? Whether we like it or not, like much going on these days ('when I were a lad..')

If you mean as a third option? Well, it’s something, for now. But the truth of the matter is ….

“No one is free until we are all free.”

“In a real sense all life is inter-related. All men are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be, and you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be...
This is the inter-related structure of reality.”

- MLK

Interesting what you say about the American vision of life and body being exported to the 'empire'. I think the sparkly-pink-plastic-laden film Barbie started to address similar expectations and standards but only seemed to loop back around to saying that ultimately the masquerade, as Germaine Greer puts it , is satisfying enough.

I don’t believe that somebody can say to me, “You are not a woman, you’re a cis-woman, I’m the real thing.” I’m very happy to believe that men make better women than women do because we know from what it takes to turn you into a woman. We used to call it conditioning, nobody even mentions that anymore, where you learn how to dress, how to speak, how to love pink and all the other things that make you a girlie girl. We had to learn all of those things and they are fake, they are a masquerade....And now we have to accept the masquerade as the thing that is more real than we are at this point, as the author of the Female Eunuch, I can’t do anything else....



I figured that would be a common response alright but Russell Brand is an uncommon person, very articulate, able to express emotions on the wing, who has built up a profile based on community, love, forgiveness, truth, healing and so on. You'd think this great challenge would be the ideal opportunity for him to conjure up another moral lesson? However, I guess there are plenty baying for blood, have been for years, and he knows it. But still. It's a hard one. Hopefully he has support, having openly admitted mental illness and other vulnerabilities. Hopefully women hurt by him have too.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

If Morrissey posted on Morrissey-Central tomorrow under the banner

'I HAVE BROKEN THE VEIL, I AM STEPHANIE MORRISSEY'

I would think, well you hid that well - and I would be alarmed and bewildered.

Maybe you won’t be so ‘alarmed and bewildered’, after I tell you, that in 1988, Morrissey once stated in a Blitz magazine interview ….

“I've always felt closer to transexuality than anything else.”

And he was being serious.

I don't think he has that stance on gender identity, he seems to be an observer and he is a voice and confidence pillar for those that have neither.