NME: "Mike Joyce on ending his feud with Johnny Marr, The Smiths’ reunion row and a mural for Andy Rourke" (October 4, 2024)

“Other people will have other ideas but, as far as I’m concerned, with Andy not being here, it’s impossible to have a reunion of The Smiths. But Morrissey and Marr together? Obviously I read those back-and-forth statements and I’m surprised they didn’t get that together earlier – that they’d have done something 10 or 15 years ago, whenever. The ownership of The Smiths’ name, going out as The Smiths with a different rhythm section? So be it.”

Mike Joyce on ending his feud with Johnny Marr, The Smiths' reunion row and a mural for Andy Rourke

Mike Joyce on the “unsavoury” feud between Morrissey and Marr, his highlights of his time with The Smiths, the chances of a reunion, and remembering Andy Rourke

www.nme.com

 

[Southpaw80]

Hard to argue with that. There is an assumption in law that if 2 or more parties enter into a business venture, then the profits of the venture are shared equally, unless there is a clear agreement to do otherwise. If it is true that Morrissey and Marr agreed a 40/40/10/10 split with Andy and Mike, they should have got them to sign something. End of. That's school boy stuff for any manager. Morrissey never should have wasted his money on an appeal.
The full appeal judgment makes interesting reading, with references to conversations that may or not have taken place throughout the life of The Smiths:

Joyce v Morrisey & Ors, [1999] EMLR 233 | England and Wales Court of Appeal (Civil Division), Judgment, Law, casemine.com

Get free access to the complete judgment in Joyce v Morrisey & Ors on CaseMine.

www.casemine.com

It's interesting that at the trial Joyce's credibility was also questioned by Judge Weeks:

What’s more, the judge added to the soap opera drama of the publicly unfurling case with his flourishes of entertainment that seemed to go beyond the call of duty. Rather inexplicably, he ranked the band by their IQ declaring Marr as the most intelligent before stating that Rourke and Joyce were “unintellectual” which, if anything, plays into classic rhythm section stereotypes. And he also offered up his judgement on the basis of character assessments which described Joyce and Rourke as “straightforward and honest”, but condemned Morrissey as “devious, truculent and unreliable where his own interests were at stake”; while Marr was daubed as “willing to embroider his evidence to a point where he became less credible.”

What actually went down during The Smiths’ lawsuit? - Far Out Magazine

The break-up of The Smith’s is one of indies most grisly examples, with Johnny Marr, Morrissey, Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce all ending up in court.

faroutmagazine.co.uk

Hard to argue with that. There is an assumption in law that if 2 or more parties enter into a business venture, then the profits of the venture are shared equally, unless there is a clear agreement to do otherwise. If it is true that Morrissey and Marr agreed a 40/40/10/10 split with Andy and Mike, they should have got them to sign something. End of. That's school boy stuff for any manager. Morrissey never should have wasted his money on an appeal.
The full appeal judgment makes interesting reading, with references to conversations that may or not have taken place throughout the life of The Smiths:

Joyce v Morrisey & Ors, [1999] EMLR 233 | England and Wales Court of Appeal (Civil Division), Judgment, Law, casemine.com

Get free access to the complete judgment in Joyce v Morrisey & Ors on CaseMine.

www.casemine.com

It's interesting that at the trial Joyce's credibility was also questioned by Judge Weeks:

What’s more, the judge added to the soap opera drama of the publicly unfurling case with his flourishes of entertainment that seemed to go beyond the call of duty. Rather inexplicably, he ranked the band by their IQ declaring Marr as the most intelligent before stating that Rourke and Joyce were “unintellectual” which, if anything, plays into classic rhythm section stereotypes. And he also offered up his judgement on the basis of character assessments which described Joyce and Rourke as “straightforward and honest”, but condemned Morrissey as “devious, truculent and unreliable where his own interests were at stake”; while Marr was daubed as “willing to embroider his evidence to a point where he became less credible.”

What actually went down during The Smiths’ lawsuit? - Far Out Magazine

The break-up of The Smith’s is one of indies most grisly examples, with Johnny Marr, Morrissey, Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce all ending up in court.

faroutmagazine.co.uk

Thanks so much for sharing this - a fascinating read. It's all there in this short paragraph - personally, I think Joe Moss should have sorted this from the beginning.

 

[gashonthenail]

I don’t think Mike’s ‘credibility’ was in doubt.

Just his IQ.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

Let us not forget that MOZI tried it on with M Joyce and that is the real reason The Smiths split.
Mike not parting his legs lead to MOZI and Marr parting ways.

 

[gashonthenail]

Thanks so much for sharing this - a fascinating read. It's all there in this short paragraph - personally, I think Joe Moss should have sorted this from the beginning.
View attachment 112747

The bit I found interesting was the allegation made by Johnny that he had walked out of The Smiths in 1983 because he wasn't happy with Morrissey's insistence on the 40/40/10/10 split, and that Joyce had persuaded him to stay, thereby suggesting that he was happy with the arrangement.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

The bit I found interesting was the allegation made by Johnny that he had walked out of The Smiths in 1983 because he wasn't happy with Morrissey's insistence on the 40/40/10/10 split, and that Joyce had persuaded him to stay, thereby suggesting that he was happy with the arrangement.

I believe in STBFree, Marr said he threatened
to leave The Smiths if Mike and Andy didn’t agree to 40/40/10/10 split. And so Mike and Andy agreed to the % split simply by staying as members. Wonder if Johnny really would have walked out.

But ultimately, nothing was written down on paper. So Mike got his way.

 

[Famous when dead]

 

[Les Tameside]

Just his IQ.

Judges resolving fiscal disputes like to help the medicine go down: Keeps it civil.

 

[RicheyinHull.]

Thanks so much for sharing this - a fascinating read. It's all there in this short paragraph - personally, I think Joe Moss should have sorted this from the beginning.
View attachment 112747

Joe would have done, without any question, but Morrissey chose to go to Geoff Travis to try and get it sorted. It never got sorted.

 

[Surface]

Nice to see Mike getting behind this fantastic cause, looking forward to the unveiling of the mural, loads of people turned up to the Ian Curtis one including Hooky, so hopefully it will be the same for Andy.

 

[goinghome]

Let us not forget that MOZI tried it on with M Joyce and that is the real reason The Smiths split.

Are you writing a fantasy novel on the Smiths in a parallel universe?

 

[goinghome]

What struck me was how closely news of Morrissey and Marr is still being followed, and the careful mention of how he works with his manager.

Published 30 Sept. in Dork Music Magazine, an interview with indie Manchester band Pale Waves includes this comment:

"It’s the day after Oasis’ long-awaited reunion was first announced, and in the coming days, Morrissey will confirm that Johnny Marr ignored an extremely lucrative offer to tour together as The Smiths. Despite coming from the same city, Pale Waves’ brand of rock’n’roll is very different to a lot of what Manchester typically produces..."

https://readdork.com/features/pale-waves-interview-sept24/

Pale Waves sound good, as per recent release Perfume.

 

[Cornflakes]

I believe in STBFree, Marr said he threatened
to leave The Smiths if Mike and Andy didn’t agree to 40/40/10/10 split. And so Mike and Andy agreed to the % split simply by staying as members. Wonder if Johnny really would have walked out.

But ultimately, nothing was written down on paper. So Mike got his way.

You don't *agree* just by someone else telling you how it's going to be, though. I don't think anyone has ever claimed Mike and Andy ever actually agreed to 10%, even in court.

The issue of the financial split continued after that episode, and they had formal negotiations about it, but it was never settled. Because there was no manager.

 

[Mayfly]

Such a wonderful idea to give Andy a mural.
I hope to see it with my own eyes one day.
Thank you Mike for initiating this one.

 

[Anonymous]

You don't *agree* just by someone else telling you how it's going to be, though. I don't think anyone has ever claimed Mike and Andy ever actually agreed to 10%, even in court.

The issue of the financial split continued after that episode, and they had formal negotiations about it, but it was never settled. Because there was no manager.

And why was there no manager? Because Morrissey fired them all. Just like he is still doing.

 

[Anonymous]

Between them, Morrissey and Marr really killed the goose that laid the golden egg. If they'd valued Joyce and Rourke (especially Rourke - I mean, Christ he was even supposedly Marr's best mate, going back to school days!) then a proper Smiths reunion would always have been an option for them. As it is, Morrissey behaved like a prima donna when The Smiths were together; Marr behaved like a prima donna in his press interviews in the years immediately following the break-up; and they both behaved like prima donnas with the legal dispute against Joyce and, in recent years, with their public spats against one another. To think that The Smiths recorded all that classic music in 5 years, and that Morrissey and Marr have now spent the best part of 40 years blinded by their egos and greed... and for what? Joyce seems to be the only one of the three surviving members who grew up and talks and sounds like an adult, instead of being trapped in his adolescence.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

You don't *agree* just by someone else telling you how it's going to be, though.

Hmmm, not totally sure if I get you. Do you mean, Marr threatening to leave the band if they (Mike & Andy) don’t agree to the percentage of 10%, and then Mike & Andy staying in the band is not a sign to Marr that they then agree to the 10%? Because from Marr’s account, that’s what seems to have happened, and he (& Morrissey) seemed satisfied with their ( Mike & Andy’s) decision. Isn’t a contract ( in this case spoken) telling you how it’s going to be, and then you can agree or not agree to it?

I don't think anyone has ever claimed Mike and Andy ever actually agreed to 10%, even in court.

Yes. And so that contradicts Marr’s story. I assume Marr would have stated this account in court. But I haven’t read the transcripts. Is Marr’s account not in the transcript. Wasn’t this Morrissey’s argument also, that they agreed to stay in the band after Marr told them he would leave if they didn’t agree to that percentage?

The issue of the financial split continued after that episode, and they had formal negotiations about it, but it was never settled. Because there was no manager.

That’s interesting. So it was never settled as to what they were getting even during The Smiths? Even after Marr’s earlier ultimatum?

 

[Cornflakes]

Hmmm, not totally sure if I get you. Do you mean, Marr threatening to leave the band if they (Mike & Andy) don’t agree to the percentage of 10%, and then Mike & Andy staying in the band is not a sign to Marr that they then agree to the 10%? Because from Marr’s account, that’s what seems to have happened, and he (& Morrissey) seemed satisfied with their ( Mike & Andy’s) decision. Isn’t a contract ( in this case spoken) telling you how it’s going to be, and then you can agree or not agree to it?



Yes. And so that contradicts Marr’s story. I assume Marr would have stated this account in court. But I haven’t read the transcripts. Is Marr’s account not in the transcript. Wasn’t this Morrissey’s argument also, that they agreed to stay in the band after Marr told them he would leave if they didn’t agree to that percentage?

In court, Johnny said that there had been a discussion but no agreement. He also didn't remember talking about a specific percentage, just some sort of reduction.

It's true he didn't leave the band. But that's just not how agreeing something works. A&M would have to do something to agree. Johnny failing to leave the band isn't them agreeing, it's just Johnny not making good on his threat. And I can't see how Johnny could think otherwise.

Morrissey wasn't asked about any of this in court, because he wasn't there. He instructed Johnny to tell Mike and Andy about the pay cut and then left town.

That’s interesting. So it was never settled as to what they were getting even during The Smiths? Even after Marr’s earlier ultimatum?

There was a meeting with solicitors in maybe early 1985 aimed at getting an agreement, but they didn't agree. I think there was a proposal where Mike and Andy would get 25% while they were in the band and then nothing after that.

 

[Juan Dulces]

Mike seems like an honest and humble person. I love what he said about how, for him, it doesn't feel like Andy is even gone. His 'mural mission' for Andy is very touching also, and a welcome sight. Additionally, I really like how Marr and Mike can be mature and respectful when seeing one another.

I remember just in the last handful (or so) of years when Mike was at a Smiths/Morrissey event I believe, and he picked up for himself some classic Morrissey memorabilia and seemed genuinely pleased to have it. Some of the items I think he had were Morrissey drinking glasses, and they might have been Kill Uncle-era if memory serves correct.

Honesty, I'd say he admires both Johnny and Morrissey to this day.

 

[On his way out]

Nice to read how enjoyable the Strangeways sessions were. Strange how it seems a Danny Kelly article was enough to tear apart all those bonds within months.

 

[SuedeMoz]

Nice to read how enjoyable the Strangeways sessions were. Strange how it seems a Danny Kelly article was enough to tear apart all those bonds within months.

I feel that the narrative originally was that the Strangeways sessions were tense and that this pic was used as evidence. Later all sides seemed to say it was an enjoyable experience and their favorite work.