Jesus of Nazareth, known as "J-dogg" by some

What is your opinion of Jesus?


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While the adults in Catholic school were busy making me “confess” to priests, sins that I hadn’t even committed, at home my parents were meanwhile busy making me do homework that I didn’t even have. Including throughout the summers.

If you had told me we coild have traded parents right then, bunbun. I was ready by age 7.
 
While the adults in Catholic school were busy making me “confess” to priests, sins that I hadn’t even committed, at home my parents were meanwhile busy making me do homework that I didn’t even have. Including throughout the summers.

If you had told me we coild have traded parents right then, bunbun. I was ready by age 7.
Chock-a-block box, power study, polish up...
 
But all I ever wanted to do was to throw my homework onto the fire and escape to go out to find the one I love ❤️
You weren't tempted to write frightening verse to a buck-toothed girl first?
 


Have you seen Work Is A Four-Letter Word, the 1968 film drawn on by Morrissey?


Not at all what I expected; turned into a group magic mushroom trip half the way through! It stars David Warner and Cilla Black. Patricia Routledge appears in the throng. A zany caper! I suspect Some Mothers Do 'Av 'Em may have been inspired by the dippy married couple? I suppose the message is about the importance of playing, not just working, in order to avoid a dull life, and I can get behind that!

I view this thread like a chapel at the airport, a place to come for peace, quiet, meditation and the like in the midst of mayhem! Aubrey/Lucifer Sam has excelled on this thread; blessings upon his sweet soul! I vote to keep it going :pray:
 
John Moriarty was calling for the abandonment of the western way of life and the abandonment of the western way of thinking, and to start again, to refound our minds and our hearts. And he does it while at the same time delighting in the ordinary.

“He is radical. It’s not a wellness manifesto. It’s not a way of coping. It’s as dramatic as what St Patrick must have called for when he came back to Ireland. So I would see John as… as important as St Patrick. His main thing was he was a Christian – but he is a Christian from the mystics back as opposed to the gospels forward. He used phrases like: ‘Do we have courage to follow Christ out of Christianity?’”

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...o-revive-radical-christian-irish-philosopher/ + https://archive.is/4v8pi#selection-1715.0-1733.412

Also, for your scholarly room, World Religions Explained with Useful Charts: Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity & More - https://www.openculture.com/2024/06...buddhism-judaism-islam-christianity-more.html
 
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The Bible appears to condemn idolatry either specifically in terms of 'gods other than the Lord', or else in a metaphorical sense:

'Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.'

I may well be wrong but it seems that neither objection really applies to Morrissey.
 
The Bible appears to condemn idolatry either specifically in terms of 'gods other than the Lord', or else in a metaphorical sense:

'Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.'

I may well be wrong but it seems that neither objection really applies to Morrissey.
Tell that to fruit flies.
 
@Lucifer Sam you’re a theologian of sorts, what do you make of this?

As someone who spent a decade-plus as a believing, contemptus mundi Christian who got of rid of certain books and DVDs because they didn't fit the holiness program, the only thing I might suggest to our good man in the OP is to consider putting these things in storage instead of selling them. At the moment it may feel like you'll never apostatize, but the grace to believe is a gift: the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.
 
To try and answer all the above (without rambling on), people can make idols of anything. I idolised music, Morrissey, drinking, smoking etc etc. many things. It’s all personal to me. I haven’t listened to Morrissey for two years haven’t smoked or had another drink. Again, all personal to me. These were things that previously I couldn’t quit. Jesus was the only one who could do it.

People question Jesus, but there is much evidence that He walked this earth as the Son of God, that He died and rose again, that His death was for the sins of the world. Sin came into the world through the fall of man, wanting to know the knowledge of good and evil. There is evidence for Christ’s resurrection in the many eye witness testimonies, and of course in the New Testament.

The bible - the Word of God - says none are without excuse, that all will bow at the name of Jesus one day. God doesn’t want any to perish, but if you have led a life separate from Him, you will spend eternity upon death in a place called hell, separated eternally from Him. The bible also says none are good. All have broken at least one of the Ten Commandments, and God is just. Jesus’ death on the cross covers our sin - if we are in Jesus when we die, God sees Jesus and not the individual standing before Him. He paid our fine.

All that is required is that we repent (turn away from our sin), follow Jesus, and our repentance leads to faith. God also wants a relationship with us. By prayer and reading His word - the Holy Bible - we develop that relationship, which leads to holiness. Christians don’t think they are better than anyone else (a common misconception). Merely they recognise their sin, and that they need a saviour. The only saviour and hope in this world is Jesus Christ. Jesus knocks on every door - including those who are reading this who don’t know Him, and for those who want to know more I would encourage you in love to read the word of God and call on the name of Jesus.

Footnote: I won’t respond to any more comments, not out of rudeness but I don’t think there is appetite for the collection as it stands and the discussion has gone in a different direction, which I am grateful for as an opportunity to share the gospel (the ‘good news’). I appreciate all the comments and questions, which have been put forward respectfully. I was previously on a football forum and it was so bad for my mental health, this is the reason I don’t want to really engage further as I just wanted to advertise my collection. I will close the thread tomorrow if possible when everyone has had chance to read this. With best wishes and God bless you all, Luke
 
To try and answer all the above (without rambling on), people can make idols of anything. I idolised music, Morrissey, drinking, smoking etc etc. many things. It’s all personal to me. I haven’t listened to Morrissey for two years haven’t smoked or had another drink. Again, all personal to me. These were things that previously I couldn’t quit. Jesus was the only one who could do it.

People question Jesus, but there is much evidence that He walked this earth as the Son of God, that He died and rose again, that His death was for the sins of the world. Sin came into the world through the fall of man, wanting to know the knowledge of good and evil. There is evidence for Christ’s resurrection in the many eye witness testimonies, and of course in the New Testament.

The bible - the Word of God - says none are without excuse, that all will bow at the name of Jesus one day. God doesn’t want any to perish, but if you have led a life separate from Him, you will spend eternity upon death in a place called hell, separated eternally from Him. The bible also says none are good. All have broken at least one of the Ten Commandments, and God is just. Jesus’ death on the cross covers our sin - if we are in Jesus when we die, God sees Jesus and not the individual standing before Him. He paid our fine.

All that is required is that we repent (turn away from our sin), follow Jesus, and our repentance leads to faith. God also wants a relationship with us. By prayer and reading His word - the Holy Bible - we develop that relationship, which leads to holiness. Christians don’t think they are better than anyone else (a common misconception). Merely they recognise their sin, and that they need a saviour. The only saviour and hope in this world is Jesus Christ. Jesus knocks on every door - including those who are reading this who don’t know Him, and for those who want to know more I would encourage you in love to read the word of God and call on the name of Jesus.

Footnote: I won’t respond to any more comments, not out of rudeness but I don’t think there is appetite for the collection as it stands and the discussion has gone in a different direction, which I am grateful for as an opportunity to share the gospel (the ‘good news’). I appreciate all the comments and questions, which have been put forward respectfully. I was previously on a football forum and it was so bad for my mental health, this is the reason I don’t want to really engage further as I just wanted to advertise my collection. I will close the thread tomorrow if possible when everyone has had chance to read this. With best wishes and God bless you all, Luke
The gospel according to Luke.
 
Footnote: I won’t respond to any more comments, not out of rudeness... With best wishes and God bless you all, Luke
Always a sinner.
Always sorry for our sins.
Always right with God.


Who said that? Calvin, or Luther, or Wesley? Truly I say, such humility is not common currency round here.
Warm regards to you. :)
 
To try and answer all the above (without rambling on), people can make idols of anything. I idolised music, Morrissey, drinking, smoking etc etc. many things. It’s all personal to me. I haven’t listened to Morrissey for two years haven’t smoked or had another drink. Again, all personal to me. These were things that previously I couldn’t quit. Jesus was the only one who could do it.

People question Jesus, but there is much evidence that He walked this earth as the Son of God, that He died and rose again, that His death was for the sins of the world. Sin came into the world through the fall of man, wanting to know the knowledge of good and evil. There is evidence for Christ’s resurrection in the many eye witness testimonies, and of course in the New Testament.

The bible - the Word of God - says none are without excuse, that all will bow at the name of Jesus one day. God doesn’t want any to perish, but if you have led a life separate from Him, you will spend eternity upon death in a place called hell, separated eternally from Him. The bible also says none are good. All have broken at least one of the Ten Commandments, and God is just. Jesus’ death on the cross covers our sin - if we are in Jesus when we die, God sees Jesus and not the individual standing before Him. He paid our fine.

All that is required is that we repent (turn away from our sin), follow Jesus, and our repentance leads to faith. God also wants a relationship with us. By prayer and reading His word - the Holy Bible - we develop that relationship, which leads to holiness. Christians don’t think they are better than anyone else (a common misconception). Merely they recognise their sin, and that they need a saviour. The only saviour and hope in this world is Jesus Christ. Jesus knocks on every door - including those who are reading this who don’t know Him, and for those who want to know more I would encourage you in love to read the word of God and call on the name of Jesus.

Footnote: I won’t respond to any more comments, not out of rudeness but I don’t think there is appetite for the collection as it stands and the discussion has gone in a different direction, which I am grateful for as an opportunity to share the gospel (the ‘good news’). I appreciate all the comments and questions, which have been put forward respectfully. I was previously on a football forum and it was so bad for my mental health, this is the reason I don’t want to really engage further as I just wanted to advertise my collection. I will close the thread tomorrow if possible when everyone has had chance to read this. With best wishes and God bless you all, Luke
Open to the idea that someone called Jesus 'walked this earth', and maybe did some preaching, but all the rest of the 'super-natural' assertions in your post I am very doubtful of. There are perfectly 'natural' explanations for all the 'magical' stuff in the Gospels. So, for example, the Greek word translated as 'virgin' in the Gospels - behold a virgin shall conceive - could just as easily be translated as a 'young woman'. And it's debatable whether Jesus ever claimed to be the literal 'son of God'. Still, if you believe all that stuff, good luck to you. It's a lovely story.
 
There are perfectly 'natural' explanations for all the 'magical' stuff in the Gospels. So, for example, the Greek word translated as 'virgin' in the Gospels - behold a virgin shall conceive - could just as easily be translated as a 'young woman'.
OK but Luke87 wasn't referring to virgin birth. What is the perfectly "natural" explanation for the resurrection?
And it's debatable whether Jesus ever claimed to be the literal 'son of God'.
Not sure how far you push "literal", I think Jesus claims Sonship pretty clearly- eg Mt 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Still, if you believe all that stuff, good luck to you. It's a lovely story.
Someone's just explained how they kicked things they couldn't without Jesus and you end on that note? A pat on the head for Golden Book hour? Don't water JC down to some chilled preacher the man couldn't get- His claims don't fit. Isn't Lewis correct to say Jesus is either mad, bad or God? Even our threadmaker has the guts to call lunatic.
 
OK but Luke87 wasn't referring to virgin birth. What is the perfectly "natural" explanation for the resurrection?
That's an easy one. It didn't happen. Coming back to life after death and rigor mortis etc. is impossible.
There are several perfectly 'natural' explanations:
1. The disciples made it up. Jesus died on the cross, and there was no resurrection.
2. Jesus wasn't actually crucified. The whole crucifixion story was invented.
3. Jesus was crucified but didn't die on the cross. He recovered from his wounds.
Take your pick. I'm sure there are other possibilities too that don't involve supernatural intervention.
 
As for Nietzsche, the idea that suffering is 'redemptive', in the widest sense of the word, is much older than Christianity. Don't forget that the 3 religions of 'The Book' owe their origins to Abraham, and the request by Jahweh to sacrifice his son, Isaac. The idea that the suffering and blood of another, via animal or human sacrifice etc., or our own suffering, via fasting, meditation, and psychological pain etc., is in some way 'redemptive' or 'propitiatory' has its origins in prehistory, and is found in every human society and civilisation.

"Blood magic" is different from redemptive suffering. The suffering of the person or animal being sacrificed isn't your own suffering. This is why Nietzsche admired ancient Judaism: he liked the idea of a proud, conquering people, impervious to taking pity on others, seizing the land by violence and calling it their own as a gift from their god. I have little doubt he would equally admire modern Israel (or, Israel: The Reboot). Palestinians? Lebanese? F*ck them; they don't matter because they're not you. Might makes right, law of the jungle, king of the heap. You're special. You're chosen.

In The Antichrist, Nietzsche admitted that the Christian view of suffering comes from Judaism—but it came from what he considered a degenerate form. In Judaism it used to be that if you were prospering, it meant God liked you. If you were suffering, God was displeased with you. This is why Job and his friends were so confused about Job's plight. They couldn't possibly know that it was God acting on a friendly wager with the devil. You could even have a shitty life full of suffering simply because God was angry at your parents or grandparents (Exodus 20:5). It was only later, when the Jewish kingdom fell, that the Jews, now the trod-upon victims of military supremacy, first under the Seleucid and then the Roman boot, revised their attitude according to their misfortune.

From this came the Messianic fervor and a collective delight in revenge fantasies. Their sufferings were now righteous: the birth pangs of a glorious new age, when Jewish supremacy would reign over the Gentiles. Suffering becomes redemptive; it manifests the works of God. John chapter 9 expresses it completely, where Jesus overturns the traditional view. Because both Jesus and Paul were caught up in this stuff (which Nietzsche considered a decadent, late Judaism) he referred to them as "superlative little Jews." Which is pretty rich, because what is Romans 5:3-4 but a formulation of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger?" It's a very Christian aphorism. Schopenhauer held the sentiment of a refined pagan: that it is ignoble and unseemly to suffer overmuch. Good taste rebukes the sufferings of the world; you should quit while you're ahead, and certainly have the decency to not bring any innocents into this seething whirl. You know the Larkin poem.
 
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Blood entitlement is still used to justify violence, with even The Guardian today shockingly peddling the notion - https://jonathancook.substack.com/p/why-is-the-liberal-media-peddling

Mark Lilla wrote an article for The New York Review in 2015, shortly after the Charlie Hebdo attacks, entitled Slouching Toward Mecca, which starts like this:

"The best-selling novel in Europe today, Michel Houellebecq’s Soumission, is about an Islamic political party coming peacefully to power in France. Its publication was announced this past fall in an atmosphere that was already tense. In May [2014] a young French Muslim committed a massacre at a Belgian Jewish museum; in the summer Muslim protesters in Paris shouted “Death to the Jews!” at rallies against the war in Gaza; in the fall stories emerged about hundreds of French young people, many converts, fighting with ISIS in Syria and Iraq; a French captive was then beheaded in Algeria; and random attacks by unstable men shouting “allahu akbar” took place in several cities. Adding to the tension was a very public debate about another best seller, Éric Zemmour’s Le Suicide français, that portrayed Muslims as an imminent threat to the French way of life...."

"January 7, the official publication date....I was probably not the only one who bought it [Submission] that morning and was reading it when the news broke that two French-born Muslim terrorists had just killed twelve people at the offices of Charlie Hebdo..."

"Michel Houellebecq has created a new genre—the dystopian conversion tale..."

"François, the main character of Soumission, is a mid-level literature professor at the Sorbonne who specializes in the work of the Symbolist novelist J.K. Huysmans..."

J.K. Huysmans wrote À rebours/Against The Grain; a book beloved of Oscar Wilde.

The paragraphs I find really interesting are these:

"There is no doubt that Houellebecq wants us to see the collapse of modern Europe and the rise of a Muslim one as a tragedy. “It means the end,” he told an interviewer, “of what is, quand même, an ancient civilization.” But does that make Soumission an Islamophobic novel? Does it portray Islam as an evil religion? That depends on what one means by a good religion. The Muslim Brotherhood here has nothing to do with the Sufi mystics or the Persian miniaturists or Rumi’s poetry, which are often mentioned as examples of the “real” Islam that radical Salafism isn’t. Nor is it the imaginary Islam of non-Muslim intellectuals who think of it on analogy with the Catholic Church (as happens in France) or with the inward-looking faiths of Protestantism (as happens in northern Europe and the US). Islam here is an alien and inherently expansive social force, an empire in nuce. It is peaceful, but it has no interest in compromise or in extending the realm of human liberty. It wants to shape better human beings, not freer ones.

Houellebecq’s critics see the novel as anti-Muslim because they assume that individual freedom is the highest human value—and have convinced themselves that the Islamic tradition agrees with them. It does not, and neither does Houellebecq. Islam is not the target of Soumission, whatever Houellebecq thinks of it. It serves as a device to express a very persistent European worry that the single-minded pursuit of freedom—freedom from tradition and authority, freedom to pursue one’s own ends—must inevitably lead to disaster.

His breakout novel, The Elementary Particles, concerned two brothers who suffered unbearable psychic wounds after being abandoned by narcissistic hippy parents who epitomized the Sixties. But with each new novel it becomes clearer that Houellebecq thinks that the crucial historical turning point was much earlier, at the beginning of the Enlightenment. The qualities that Houellebecq projects onto Islam are no different from those that the religious right ever since the French Revolution has attributed to premodern Christendom—strong families, moral education, social order, a sense of place, a meaningful death, and, above all, the will to persist as a culture. And he shows a real understanding of those—from the radical nativist on the far right to radical Islamists—who despise the present and dream of stepping back in history to recover what they imagine was lost..."

&
 
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