Andy Rourke RC interview - April, 2022

Text reproduction of his interview in "Record Collector presents: The Smiths" special (April 21, 2022).

"ACE OF BASS

It all began with a Neil Young badge pinned to his school blazer. In this brand new interview, Andy Rourke tells Lois Wilson about the call from an old mate that would change his life forever...

I met Johnny at school when I was 11. I was really into Neil Young at the time and he was wearing a Neil Young Tonight's The Night lapel badge. This was when everyone else seemed to be into Jethro Tull and heavy metal, so Neil Young was a conversation opener and pretty soon we were spending all our spare time together, either playing music or listening to music or talking about music. We formed a band together, Freak Party. It was me on bass, Johnny on guitar and funky Si Wolstenscroft on drums, and the music did get funky. The Clash's Sandinista! had just come out and we were jumping on that vibe. We rehearsed every night until kicking out time, we got stoned a lot and jammed a lot. They were good days, but we auditioned countless frontmen to no avail and eventually Johnny quit out of frustration as it became clear we weren't going anywhere.

Not long after he quit he called me up. He had a new band called The Smiths. Did I want to join. They'd already played their first gig at the Ritz in Manchester with Dale Hibbert on bass. Some mates of mine had gone along but I hadn't. I met up with Johnny, he said it didn't work out with Dale and he gave me a demo tape which had two songs on it - Suffer Little Children and The Hand That Rocks The Cradle. It wasn't what I was expecting but I could hear something great in there, something different and I really liked what Johnny was doing, The first recordings I did with The Smiths were the demos for Handsome Devil and Miserable Lie and these were done in the downstairs of a studio in Chorlton called Drone. That's when I first met Morrissey and Mike. When I got there, Mike was saring up his drums. He was chatty, easy to get on with. Then, as I was setting up Morrissey arrived, he introduced himself as Stephen, shook my hand then shuffled into the corner and started going through his bag of lyrics and sandwiches and stuff. People often called him aloof at that time, but I think he was painfully shy, he just wasn't used to meeting new people. Our first gig was at Manhattan Sound in Manchester (on 25 January 1983) and it was utter chaos. There was no stage, the sound was terrible, the audience were right in your face, virtually touching you and I was so nervous I really didn't enjoy it at all. But we played OK. James Maker introduced us. He was our go-go dancer. I wasn't comfortable with his role and I am pretty sure Mike and Johnny felt the same. It was an unnecessary distraction and I think it cramped Morrissey's style. There wasn't much scope for him when James was jumping around.

Johnny and I used to go to The Hacienda pretty much every night. In those days it was really quiet and it was freezing cold. People sat in their own corner. There was the drug dealing corner, the gay corner, the extrovert corner and when we got a gig there [on 4 February 1983] it felt like a big deal, and in many ways our first proper gig. We had monitors and a stage and a set list and Morrissey ordered a shit load of gladioli and he threw half out to the audience, and half he stuck in his back pocket and that became a thing and the boxes got bigger and bigger and his back pockets got bigger and bigger and eventually he had half a tree in there.

After that Hacienda gig, we really took off, there was no stopping us. We were a had total belief and we had a real "us versus them" attitude. Not being on Factory, there was a sense we stood apart from the other Manchester bands like A Certain Ratio, New Order, Durutti Column. We were our own separate thing.

I don't remember the exact point Steven became Morrissey but I know he first broke the news to Johnny and Johnny gave us the heads up we weren't to call him Steven or, worse still, Steve, which he hated. At first it was really awkward calling him Morrissey, and he'd get embarrassed and then he'd call me Rourke and I wouldn't be sure if we were to revert back to calling him Steven but eventually it became normal and we even got down to just Moz and Mozza.

Going on Top Of The Pops with This Charming Man was another big deal. I'd grown up listening to the Top 20 on the radio with my mum and it had been everything to me so I was overjoyed, we all were, but we were all nervous too. We went down to the studio. It was very surreal and we weren't prepared for the total fakeness of it - the miming, the fake audience dancing (and if they didn't dance they got thrown out). We went into the make-up room and we'd bought Marks & Spencer sweaters for the occasion and they said, "What are you going to be wearing for the show?" and we were like, "This is it." We went on in our black jeans and sweaters. We definitely stood out.

Ironically, Strangeways, Here We Come is my favourite album. It's the one on which we completely gelled. We had come of age and we were in our element and ready to take on the world and then of course we split up. There was no inkling Johnny was going to leave but in hindsight I can see the frustrations, but I was too busy getting on with my own thing to realise the gravity of the situation. When he left the impact was huge and I think we were all traumatised and probably still are. No one knew how to react. I didn't know whether to call him or leave him alone. It was a really awful time, horrible. for everyone concerned.

Almost immediately after he left, Morrissey asked me and Mike to play on his solo stuff-a big kick in the eye for Johnny and it made me feel even more awkward about speaking to him. I felt like I had betrayed him so it was a long while before we spoke again. We had been best friends and then we weren't talking. I hadn't fallen out with him, but I felt guilty. It's not a time I fondly recall.

In The Smiths when we were getting songs together, Johnny already knew how the music would sound and he would play his guitar part. I would write the bass part and that was as far as my writing went. Morrissey brought out the songwriter in me. He believed I could do it and he made me believe I could do it and we ended up writing together. We started off with a blank page and a blank cassette and from that we wrote Yes, I Am Blind and Girl Least Likely To.

After Morrissey, there was Freebass (with Mani and Peter Hook) and D.A.R.K. I also wrote the music for Anthony Bourdain's Raw Craft TV series and worked with James Franco putting his poems inspired by The Smiths to music. I am currently playing in Blitz Vega with KAV from the Happy Mondays. We've got a single coming out this year called Strong Forever to be followed by an EP."

---

Regards,
FWD.

 

[Vegan Cro Spirit 555]

I don't understand this comment.

should go on and use a guitar
when playing the out of tune wrong chords
in the blondie tour

 

[dider]

This is all very interesting. I've said before I consider both Rourke and Joyce integral to the Smiths sound. It was a collective thing they had. The bulk of the songwriting was obviously the chords and melody/lyrics, but some argument can be made that nothing would have been the same or as good as it was with Rourke & Joyce's contributions. Rourke's basslines are not predictable. No one else would have played them the same and he understood intrinsically how to play off Marr and Joyce. I am also a huge fan of Joyce's style and contributions. I do not know in a formal sense whether either of them should have been entitled to a songwriter credit. It could have gone either way. Bands like REM chose to credit all 4. Others like the Smiths didn't.

I remember seeing Andy and Mike live with Sinead O'Connor's band in NY not long after the Smiths split, and that was a thrill, plus Andy played guitar for a version of "The Hand That Rocks The Cradle" with only Sinead also on stage. I felt like the only person in the room who knew. An even bigger thrill was seeing Marr with The The in Toronto on that first tour. It blew my mind.

I feel credit is due Morrissey for encouraging his musical collaborators to push with their writing. I did always wonder how Andy came to write with him and I like both of those songs much, especially "Yes, I Am Blind," which is haunting and beautiful. Both had a feeling of continuity with the Smiths and early Morrissey solo work, without being copycat. Perhaps Rourke could have even worked with another singer had he chosen to continue in the style after Morrissey formed his more permanent group.

 

[Anonymous]

"In The Smiths when we were getting songs together, Johnny already knew how the music would sound and he would play his guitar part. I would write the bass part and that was as far as my writing went. "

Andy, writing those amazing bass lines went pretty damn far in my opinion.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Andy might just be my favorite bass player of all time. No one sounded like he did back when he was in the Smiths. I’m no musician, but to me, his stuff seemed both effortless and technically very intrinsic. And very melodic! For me, it’s either him or Hooky (JD era). Simon Gallup standing firmly as first reserve.

 

[Anonymous]

This is all very interesting. I've said before I consider both Rourke and Joyce integral to the Smiths sound. It was a collective thing they had. The bulk of the songwriting was obviously the chords and melody/lyrics, but some argument can be made that nothing would have been the same or as good as it was with Rourke & Joyce's contributions. Rourke's basslines are not predictable. No one else would have played them the same and he understood intrinsically how to play off Marr and Joyce. I am also a huge fan of Joyce's style and contributions. I do not know in a formal sense whether either of them should have been entitled to a songwriter credit. It could have gone either way. Bands like REM chose to credit all 4. Others like the Smiths didn't.

Unlike Morrissey, I've nothing against Mike Joyce, but I think giving him a songwriting co-credit would be a bit much. Totally agree about Rourke though. My argument, as I've posted on this forum a few times, is that the credits should have read: "Songs by Morrissey" (as he coined the vocal melodies and lyrics); "Music by Marr/Rourke" and sometimes "Music by Marr/Rourke/Porter". Not that the music on The Smiths records is separate from the song, of course, but each could be a separate entity in its own right - the songs can be sung a cappella, and most of the backing tracks would work fine as instrumentals in their own right.

This is the first time I've ever seen Rourke state that he 'wrote' the bass parts - although it has always been obvious that he did.

 

[Rubbersoul]

He really downplays his contribution with the whole 'that was as as far as my writing went' thing. In my opinion, and I know it's the opinion of the majority of Smiths fans, Andy's basslines are a vitally important component of The Smiths' music. In many of the songs, the basslines stand out more than the guitars.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

So Marr didn’t write those songs? It’s Morrissey that wrote the songs?

But how could Morrissey write those songs without Marr?

Oh yeah, I forgot, you believe that music without a lead vocal/melody is not and cannot be called a song.

 

[Vegan Cro Spirit 555]

He really downplays his contribution with the whole 'that was as as far as my writing went' thing. In my opinion, and I know it's the opinion of the majority of Smiths fans, Andy's basslines are a vitally important component of The Smiths' music. In many of the songs, the basslines stand out more than the guitars.

naturally LePepe has claimed to have written the bass lines
i wouldnt be shocked if he made a podcast claiming to have
written all music

 

[BrummieBoy]

should go on and use a guitar
when playing the out of tune wrong chords
in the blondie tour

Please keep on topic.

BrummieBoy
Salford

 

[Anonymous]

So Marr didn’t write those songs? It’s Morrissey that wrote the songs?

But how could Morrissey write those songs without Marr?

Oh yeah, I forgot, you believe that music without a lead vocal/melody is not and cannot be called a song.

'Song' comes from the same root as 'sing' - so the word essentially means a vocal melody/words. And that's why there's a word for music that doesn't have a vocal melody on top of it - 'instrumental'. Pretty simple to grasp. Even for you, I daresay.

And I remember having this discussion with you before, but you're evidently too thick to recollect the explanation. Morrissey doesn't write songs - he writes lyrics. He creates songs by singing a vocal melody over an instrumental. So, although it's more accurate to say that he creates songs, rather than writing them, the answer to your question is basically "No, Morrissey couldn't have created those songs without Marr". That's not the same as saying Marr co-wrote or co-created the songs. He didn't. He co-created the music with Rourke. Morrissey then used that music, and his lyrics, to create his vocal melodies. The lyrics and the vocal melody are what constitute a song, because they're its only essential components. Take away the music, and you still have the song. Take away the lyrics or the vocal melody, and you no longer have the song. So the song is the lyrics and the vocal melody. So no, Marr didn't write the songs. He co-created the music. That's what he deserves a credit for.

 

[Rubbersoul]

naturally LePepe has claimed to have written the bass lines
i wouldnt be shocked if he made a podcast claiming to have
written all music

He hasn't actually. I'm not one of those people who thinks that Marr can do no wrong, I'm actually finding him increasingly annoying, but for the sake of factual accuracy and to be fair to him, he has never taken credit for the basslines and has praised Rourke for coming up with them, as he should.

 

[Anonymous]

Andy is certainly underappreciated and should be more recognized for his contribution to the band. That said, I have never once heard him complain about not getting any songwriting credits in the Smiths, so he clearly doesn't feel hard done by on that account.

 

[Vegan Cro Spirit 555]

He hasn't actually. I'm not one of those people who thinks that Marr can do no wrong, I'm actually finding him increasingly annoying, but for the sake of factual accuracy and to be fair to him, he has never taken credit for the basslines and has praised Rourke for coming up with them, as he should.

i posted the link where he said -back in the day of course
that he had taught DH Andy the bass lines.
now that he is a leather shoe wearing 'do as i say not as i do' vegan, he done
changed his tune

 

[Anonymous]

i posted the link where he said -back in the day of course
that he had taught DH Andy the bass lines.
now that he is a leather shoe wearing 'do as i say not as i do' vegan, he done
changed his tune

JM wrote the basslines for the songs written before Andy joined the Smiths.

 

[vegan cro spirit .777]

so he was making it up when he now says DH Andy wrote all of them?
whichever way the wind blows, there you will find LePep grounded and making stuff up on his wearing the shoes

 

[Deleted member 30524]

He hasn't actually. I'm not one of those people who thinks that Marr can do no wrong, I'm actually finding him increasingly annoying, but for the sake of factual accuracy and to be fair to him, he has never taken credit for the basslines and has praised Rourke for coming up with them, as he should.

Save your words, as they are wasted
On a think plank of wood

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

'Song' comes from the same root as 'sing' - so the word essentially means a vocal melody/words. And that's why there's a word for music that doesn't have a vocal melody on top of it - 'instrumental'. Pretty simple to grasp. Even for you, I daresay.

Sure. But plenty recognize and call instrumentals ‘songs’. If they are correct or not for doing so, it doesn’t matter. It’s nothing to get angry over.

Morrissey doesn't write songs - he writes lyrics. He creates songs by singing a vocal melody over an instrumental. So, although it's more accurate to say that he creates songs, rather than writing them,

Yes and no. It’s more accurate to say ‘He helps in the creation of the songs by …’ that it was only possible for Morrissey to create songs only by collaborating with Marr. Marr came in with the music he wrote, and then Morrissey added the words he wrote and together they are the writers of those songs.

And it’s easier to say that both Morrissey and Marr are the writers/creators of the song, (words & music) = song, even though other people, all play an important role in this process.

the answer to your question is basically "No, Morrissey couldn't have created those songs without Marr". That's not the same as saying Marr co-wrote or co-created the songs. He didn't.

I disagree. Marr did in fact co-write those songs with Morrissey.

He co-created the music with Rourke. Morrissey then used that music, and his lyrics, to create his vocal melodies.

yes I agree Rourke was a part of the songs creation process, and brought a distinct and tasteful addition. And maybe should have gotten song writing credit for some of those songs(?) it’s debatable, and we’d have to define what song writing is, and more importantly find out what spoken or unspoken agreement Rourke had with Marr and Morrissey. Guess Andy felt it was fair, don’t know.

The lyrics and the vocal melody are what constitute a song, because they're its only essential components. Take away the music, and you still have the song.

I disagree. Then if the lyrics and vocal are the songs “only essential components” then why does Morrissey or most pop singers even bother with having musicians backing them.

Yeah of course most remember a song by a lead vocal melody, but that doesn’t make the instrumental part of the song any less essential or less important to its impact on the listener.

And it’s also no reason to say that Marr is not a song writer or co-writer of those songs with Morrissey.

So the song is the lyrics and the vocal melody. So no, Marr didn't write the songs. He co-created the music. That's what he deserves a credit for.

No. The song is not only the lyrics and vocal melody.

If it were, then lyricists/vocalists wouldn’t bother to write songs together with a person
that plays and writes music on a musical instrument(other than voice).

 

[Deleted member 30524]

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah of course most remember a song by a lead vocal melody, but that doesn’t make the instrumental part of the song any less essential

It's not a question of what people remember, it's a question of what they need, in order to perform/cover the song. They need the words and they need the melody, they don't need anything else. They can change the backing music, they can change the chords, they can change the tempo, they can change the instruments, it'll still be the song.

Take any piece of Smiths music, put a different vocal melody and lyric on it, and you'll have a different song.

Therefore the music is not the song, the vocal melody and the lyric are the song.

Credit where credit's due. Music by Marr/Rourke. Songs by Morrissey.

 

[Dider]

As far as copyright is concerned a song is vocal melody, lyrics and chords. So no, Morrissey did not write the songs. They’re Morrissey/Marr and maybe add Joyce & / or Rourke depending on a band agreement or not.

Yes I’ve read Marr taught AR the pre-Rourke baselines then AR wrote his own. They are indeed very melodic. Whether it constitutes a songwriting credit is debatable. Though a guitar chord pattern without bass is still a song, a bassline without chords really is not.