Kill Uncle and Southpaw Grammar - what ifs

[gashonthenail]

Moz's mistake was ditching Stephen Street. I don't think Langer & Winstanley were 'bad' producers - but I don't think they were 'right' for Moz. Clearly Moz was searching for something new after Viva. It felt like it took him some time to find the sound he was looking for and the band he was looking for. It wasn't until Arsenal that it all came together. And clearly having someone like Mick Ronson on board brought all those ingredients together to create something special.
Vauxhall was the zenith of Morrissey's career. There is nowhere to go after that but sideways, or down. So Southpaw was always going to be something of a 'difficult' album. I do have to say I think there is a darkness and grandeur to that album that is rather wonderful - but you can't help but feel that Moz was grappling with depression for at least some of it, and clearly in 1995 he dropped out of the Bowie tour. The drum solo I could always take or leave - but Southpaw as a song is majestic. And it's the Moz album that sounds most like The Dolls - which can't be a bad thing. For me Southpaw is always going to be up there as one of my favourite Moz albums. It felt so 'out there' and on its own in terms of the rest of pop culture as well - that Jools Holland interview mentioned by Acton in another thread was the same show that had Pulp on it, riding high with their album Different Class number 1 in the charts. This was the peak of Brit Pop and the hedonistic 90s - and here was Moz with a dark and brooding album that sounded like the New York Dolls, and he and the band dressed like gangsters from the 1950s or 60s. You can see all the bands being introduced in this clip below, with Moz standing impassive like he is refusing to join in the party.

 

[BookishBoy]

Moz's mistake was ditching Stephen Street. I don't think Langer & Winstanley were 'bad' producers - but I don't think they were 'right' for Moz. Clearly Moz was searching for something new after Viva. It felt like it took him some time to find the sound he was looking for and the band he was looking for. It wasn't until Arsenal that it all came together. And clearly having someone like Mick Ronson on board brought all those ingredients together to create something special.
Vauxhall was the zenith of Morrissey's career. There is nowhere to go after that but sideways, or down. So Southpaw was always going to be something of a 'difficult' album. I do have to say I think there is a darkness and grandeur to that album that is rather wonderful - but you can't help but feel that Moz was grappling with depression for at least some of it, and clearly in 1995 he dropped out of the Bowie tour. The drum solo I could always take or leave - but Southpaw as a song is majestic. And it's the Moz album that sounds most like The Dolls - which can't be a bad thing. For me Southpaw is always going to be up there as one of my favourite Moz albums. It felt so 'out there' and on its own in terms of the rest of pop culture as well - that Jools Holland interview mentioned by Acton in another thread was the same show that had Pulp on it, riding high with their album Different Class number 1 in the charts. This was the peak of Brit Pop and the hedonistic 90s - and here was Moz with a dark and brooding album that sounded like the New York Dolls, and he and the band dressed like gangsters from the 1950s or 60s. You can see all the bands being introduced in this clip below, with Moz standing impassive like he is refusing to join in the party.

I wonder if that's partly because Jarvis winds him up so much? He certainly has that effect on me.

 

[gashonthenail]

I wonder if that's partly because Jarvis winds him up so much? He certainly has that effect on me.

I was a fan of Pulp at the time, as well as of Moz of course, and I remember tuning in that night on BBC2 to watch both of them. There was a party going in pop culture in the 90s and Pulp were riding high. I thought they were head and shoulders above both Blur and Oasis. Still do. Moz clearly wanted nothing to do with the party. Proudly doing his own thing. Both out of time and timeless.

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Moz's mistake was ditching Stephen Street. I don't think Langer & Winstanley were 'bad' producers - but I don't think they were 'right' for Moz. Clearly Moz was searching for something new after Viva. It felt like it took him some time to find the sound he was looking for and the band he was looking for. It wasn't until Arsenal that it all came together. And clearly having someone like Mick Ronson on board brought all those ingredients together to create something special.
Vauxhall was the zenith of Morrissey's career. There is nowhere to go after that but sideways, or down. So Southpaw was always going to be something of a 'difficult' album. I do have to say I think there is a darkness and grandeur to that album that is rather wonderful - but you can't help but feel that Moz was grappling with depression for at least some of it, and clearly in 1995 he dropped out of the Bowie tour. The drum solo I could always take or leave - but Southpaw as a song is majestic. And it's the Moz album that sounds most like The Dolls - which can't be a bad thing. For me Southpaw is always going to be up there as one of my favourite Moz albums. It felt so 'out there' and on its own in terms of the rest of pop culture as well - that Jools Holland interview mentioned by Acton in another thread was the same show that had Pulp on it, riding high with their album Different Class number 1 in the charts. This was the peak of Brit Pop and the hedonistic 90s - and here was Moz with a dark and brooding album that sounded like the New York Dolls, and he and the band dressed like gangsters from the 1950s or 60s. You can see all the bands being introduced in this clip below, with Moz standing impassive like he is refusing to join in the party.

The Dolls? Really I think the Dolls gritty, ramshackle rock ’n’ roll has more in common with Refusal. SG is much too muscular, bombastic and experimental.

 

[Phranc & Open]

Remember the liner notes to the Southpaw reissue (which didn't really concern you) when he had sleepless nights because of the commercial quality of the songs. He still cared about hits (and misses) back then. He wanted to be high in the charts with his singles.

 

[gashonthenail]

The Dolls? Really I think the Dolls gritty, ramshackle rock ’n’ roll has more in common with Refusal. SG is much too muscular, bombastic and experimental.

The guitars on Reader Meet Author, Boy Racer, Do Your Best, Best Friend are all very Dolls surely?

this is you on a drab day, you in a drab dress...

 

[Was I ever any good]

Remember the liner notes to the Southpaw reissue (which didn't really concern you) when he had sleepless nights because of the commercial quality of the songs. He still cared about hits (and misses) back then. He wanted to be high in the charts with his singles.

He still does care about hits and misses. Just a shame he can’t get a record deal…..
I wonder what happened

 

[Gregor Samsa]

The guitars on Reader Meet Author, Boy Racer, Do Your Best, Best Friend are all very Dolls surely?

this is you on a drab day, you in a drab dress...

I agree on “Do Your Best”! I can hear David singing that one. “Boy Racer” is much too muscular, “Reader” too much British guitar pop (and so is probably “Best Friend” as well).

What do you other freaks think?

 

[BurgerButt]

There's been a lot of revisionism around Kill Uncle...... When it came out the press was generally positive and there was a good vibe around Morrissey at that time, in the press etc. I personally love Kill Uncle, it's just so different to everything else he's done, but so Morrissey.

I remember someone in the NME making a statement saying had there ever been a time when such an A list artist (or words to that effect) ever had a run of such poor singles, i'm sure it was 3 of the below.

Picadilly Palare, Our Frank, Sing Your life and Pregnant for the Last Time

Me personally i love all these, but you could see, all of a sudden for the first time in his career he was being questioned and in some cases becoming the butt of jokes. Before that he was untouchable. It also didn't help that against Madchester and the rave scene, all of a sudden he really did seem out of touch with the Indie kids.........

Southpaw could and should have been amazing, it's biggest problem not the songs that are on it, rather the songs that were left off.

 

[BurgerButt]

I've never felt that Kill Uncle deserved such derision and I still like "Driving Your Girlfriend Home" and "Mute Witness" but... yeah. It suffered because it followed on from an impossibly strong start - Viva and the Bona Drag were practically flawless - and next to those, it sounded like a very limp collection of demos. Even Morrissey didn't seem to care about it - it was made with session musicians and he more or less knew it was crap but it was "recording for the sake of recording".

I feel a similar way about Southpaw Grammar - some nice songs but it feels like a completely half-arsed album where he was just phoning it in, not really trying and gave up halfway through. I remember him saying later that he just let the label control the cover art for this and Maladjusted etc and consequently thought most of the covers were awful. He really let his quality control slide with those albums.

Mark Nevin said just that though didn't he? he delivered demo tapes to Morrissey and was surprised when they became the actual songs, he thought they would have worked on them more

 

[Phranc & Open]

I agree on “Do Your Best”! I can hear David singing that one. “Boy Racer” is much too muscular, “Reader” too much British guitar pop (and so is probably “Best Friend” as well).

What do you other freaks think?

Luv them all. Morrissey 93-95(97) can't fail. Love, breakup, anger and melancholie. Boxers and Sunny are outstanding. He should have stayed that age forever. Lillywhite did everything right. Carve that om my tombstone.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I agree on “Do Your Best”! I can hear David singing that one. “Boy Racer” is much too muscular, “Reader” too much British guitar pop (and so is probably “Best Friend” as well).

What do you other freaks think?

Mmm, maybe that one song. His band in 92 on the Arsenal tour was probably the closest to a Dolls feel, the danger was reined back in by the Boxers tour, though I guess the vibe of Vauxhall, etc dictated why that was the case.

I always could imagine Johansen singing this one, especially the ‘yeah’ part …

 

[Juan Dulces]

Luv them all. Morrissey 93-95 can't fail. Boxers and Sunny are outstanding. He should have stayed that age forever. Lillywhite did everything right.

GREAT Morrissey era. Truly the 'Morrissey Sound'.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Moz's mistake was ditching Stephen Street. I don't think Langer & Winstanley were 'bad' producers - but I don't think they were 'right' for Moz. Clearly Moz was searching for something new after Viva. It felt like it took him some time to find the sound he was looking for and the band he was looking for. It wasn't until Arsenal that it all came together. And clearly having someone like Mick Ronson on board brought all those ingredients together to create something special.
Vauxhall was the zenith of Morrissey's career. There is nowhere to go after that but sideways, or down. So Southpaw was always going to be something of a 'difficult' album. I do have to say I think there is a darkness and grandeur to that album that is rather wonderful - but you can't help but feel that Moz was grappling with depression for at least some of it, and clearly in 1995 he dropped out of the Bowie tour. The drum solo I could always take or leave - but Southpaw as a song is majestic. And it's the Moz album that sounds most like The Dolls - which can't be a bad thing. For me Southpaw is always going to be up there as one of my favourite Moz albums. It felt so 'out there' and on its own in terms of the rest of pop culture as well - that Jools Holland interview mentioned by Acton in another thread was the same show that had Pulp on it, riding high with their album Different Class number 1 in the charts. This was the peak of Brit Pop and the hedonistic 90s - and here was Moz with a dark and brooding album that sounded like the New York Dolls, and he and the band dressed like gangsters from the 1950s or 60s. You can see all the bands being introduced in this clip below, with Moz standing impassive like he is refusing to join in the party.

Lol. love that guests intro bit. Yes, Morrissey, hoist you from the herd, indeed!

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Luv them all. Morrissey 93-95(97) can't fail. Love, breakup, anger and melancholie. Boxers and Sunny are outstanding. He should have stayed that age forever. Lillywhite did everything right. Carve that om my tombstone.

yes. my top four ….

Lillywhite - Vauxhall,Boxers
Ronson-Arsenal
Street - Viva
Visconti - Tormentors

 

[Musician]

There's been a lot of revisionism around Kill Uncle...... When it came out the press was generally positive and there was a good vibe around Morrissey at that time, in the press etc. I personally love Kill Uncle, it's just so different to everything else he's done, but so Morrissey.

I remember someone in the NME making a statement saying had there ever been a time when such an A list artist (or words to that effect) ever had a run of such poor singles, i'm sure it was 3 of the below.

Picadilly Palare, Our Frank, Sing Your life and Pregnant for the Last Time

Me personally i love all these, but you could see, all of a sudden for the first time in his career he was being questioned and in some cases becoming the butt of jokes. Before that he was untouchable. It also didn't help that against Madchester and the rave scene, all of a sudden he really did seem out of touch with the Indie kids.........

Southpaw could and should have been amazing, it's biggest problem not the songs that are on it, rather the songs that were left off.

Well - I am with you many points. I also loved Piccadily, Our Frank, was a huge fan at the time. So as a fan, sure, we appreciate Morrissey’s singles but objectively I can see why NME shifted. And no, no conspiracies here (thank God Karen is absent from this thread), simply there were loads of singles that were just much much better at the time. Don’t get me started. Same applies to Southpaw: I think Gash’s description is completely spot on and I also love that album. However, on singles front, well, all Pulp, Oasis, Suede etc etc singles piss on “Dagenham Dave”, sorry.

 

[Musician]

1995 singles by respective artists, of course

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Regardless of the quality of other musical acts releases or even his songs. It’s his voice that always wins it for me. None of them can come even close or do it better.

So I’d take Dagenham Dave over any of the Brit pop of the time and onwards.

 

[Musician]

Regardless of the quality of other musical acts releases or even his songs. It’s his voice that always wins it for me. None of them can come even close or do it better.

So I’d take Dagenham Dave over any of the Brit pop of the time and onwards.

Of course. As we always agree, it’s all subjective. What I tried to point out is, regardless our love of Morrissey’s music, it’s completely normal Britpop bands stole the limelight and NME also favoured them. Just like, one can be a huge Bowie fan (as I am), and can prefer his voice, but objectively his singles off “Tonight” are nowhere near of many acts in 1984 (like Bunnymen, or a certain band from Manchester).

 

[MoneyChangesEverything]

The biggest mistake Moz has always made is holding onto money like Scrooge McDuck. PAY YOUR WRITERS AND MUSICIANS. And if you do that, it'll be less likely that My Life Is An Endless Succession of People Saying Goodbye.

Kill Uncle can be quite good. I have a different running order that (just about) salvages it.

Our Frank / Mute Witness / Pregnant For The Last Time / The Loop / I've Changed My Plea / Asian Rut
Sing Your Life / King Leer / Driving Your Girlfriend / My Love Life / I'm The End Of The Family Line / There Is A Place In Hell

B's :

Our Frank / Found Found Found / Harsh Truth
Sing Your Life / That's Entertainment / Journalists Who Lie
Pregnant / Skinstorm / Tony The Pony
My Love Life / Sing Your Life / There Is A Place (All KROQ Versions)