Paul Auster on flawed artists

[gashonthenail]

By "Morrissey's interest in right-wing commentators colors his art," I was just referring to Bonfire of Teenagers and Notre-Dame coming not too long after the period where he was posting various alt-right or alt-right-adjacent pundits on his website, recommending Douglas Murray, endorsing Anne-Marie Waters, &c. It depends on how you want to take the lyrics (which are ultimately, as you say, subjective), but the subject matter does correspond to his interest in these people.

It's an interesting point of view, Aubs, but not sure if I agree with it. Of course, in many way it is impossible to know whether a song like Bonfire could have been written by Morrissey as a younger man - Britain in the 80s and 90s was a very different place in so many ways. But I do think a song like Bonfire is not a million miles away from much of Morrissey's other song writing: an uncomfortable topic that others would rather not talk about (Suffer Little Children), the assertion that we should distrust what we are being told (Meat is Murder, Shoplifters of the World), the suggestion that we should get angry and should not ignore what is really going on in the world (Panic).

 

[Lucifer Sam]

It's an interesting point of view, Aubs, but not sure if I agree with it. Of course, in many way it is impossible to know whether a song like Bonfire could have been written by Morrissey as a younger man - Britain in the 80s and 90s was a very different place in so many ways. But I do think a song like Bonfire is not a million miles away from much of Morrissey's other song writing: an uncomfortable topic that others would rather not talk about (Suffer Little Children), the assertion that we should distrust what we are being told (Meat is Murder, Shoplifters of the World), the suggestion that we should get angry and should not ignore what is really going on in the world (Panic).

That's true of Bonfire for sure, but it's hard to imagine him writing Notre-Dame without the other influences I mentioned. It's all speculation, but I fall on the side of those who look at the things posted on Morrissey Central and conclude that he enjoys going down right-wing rabbit-holes on YouTube.

I don't dislike politics in art, but I think it's one of the trickier things to do effectively. Pop lyrics can be forgiven for being dumb because the writer is usually just singing about love and lust among the young, so even "baby baby baby" can seem okay. For me it's not that Morrissey shouldn't have written Notre-Dame, but that he should've done better in selling the theory. It's just "we know who" (never named) and "we will not be silent." Very poor. A young Billy Bragg could write borderline Soviet apologetics better than Morrissey writes about his cathedral fire. Dante sent all his ideological enemies to hell (even including popes), but he also made the effort to explain why.

 

[gashonthenail]

That's true of Bonfire for sure, but it's hard to imagine him writing Notre-Dame without the other influences I mentioned. It's all speculation, but I fall on the side of those who look at the things posted on Morrissey Central and conclude that he enjoys going down right-wing rabbit-holes on YouTube.

I don't dislike politics in art, but I think it's one of the trickier things to do effectively. Pop lyrics can be forgiven for being dumb because the writer is usually just singing about love and lust among the young, so even "baby baby baby" can seem okay. For me it's not that Morrissey shouldn't have written Notre-Dame, but that he should've done better in selling the theory. It's just "we know who" (never named) and "we will not be silent." Very poor. A young Billy Bragg could write borderline Soviet apologetics better than Morrissey writes about his cathedral fire. Dante sent all his ideological enemies to hell (even including popes), but he also made the effort to explain why.

Yes, Notre Dame is not one of his best lyrics. In fact, it's not really a lyric. It's just a series of prosaic statements, put to music. I suppose it may be part of a theme of the album of things coming to an end? I have always thought it will probably be his last studio album, unless he does a California Son II. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

 

[gordyboy9]

God, that sniffy English interviewer is awful. Doesn't even let the man finish a sentence without interrupting him to try and insert some poncy self-righteous moral homily.

Harlan Ellison said something interesting about flawed artists, too, and he was very much one himself. He said regarding artists through a sanctimonious prism is a mean-spirited practice, because it's never used to say well, this artist lived a potentially painful, miserable, disgusting, horrible life, but nobody ever remarks upon how inspiring it is that some beautiful or awe-inspiring or thought-provoking art came out of such a troubled soul. And that is true.

The question of it maybe not being right to enjoy the art of a flawed artist, in an interview, or in any setting, is just a way for the interviewer to try and flaunt their own supposed moral superiority to some artist whose views or art don't coincide with their own tastes. It's absolutely fake. And disgusting, quite frankly.

im assuming the programme is hardtalk on the bbc news channel,its usually on around midnight,some people get a hard time on it and some people get it easy,hes too smarmy.

 

[Serge Gainsbourg]

But does Journey to the End of the Night have a message favorable to anti-Semitism? If an objectionable artist makes great art, then it's easy to separate the art from the artist. But Wagner's interest in Christianity, and Morrissey's interest in right-wing commentators, did color their art. In such cases, the art can't so easily be separated from the artist. Whenever an artist is saying something moral or political or cultural in their art, separating the two is difficult. At best you can separate the artist's technique from the content, but in that case you might not be getting the full value.

There is not a single antisemitic content in the Journey to the End of the Night, nor in his second book Mort à crédit, for the simple reason that Céline was not antisemitic at this stage of his life. He became obssessively antisemitic after the commercial and critical failure of Mort à crédit and with WWII approaching. Yet, the Voyage and Mort à crédit are probably the best novels ever written, at least in French language.

 

[DaveJCarr]

In fact, it's not really a lyric. It's just a series of prosaic statements, put to music.

This is not entirely related to the discussion the two of you have been having, but it struck me that that particular description captures the reason so many of the songs and the albums Morrissey has written in the last decade have failed to really capture my attention the way that his earlier solo work, or group efforts have.

I think the same way about something like "I am not a man", or "I Bury The living". It does seem that on the whole, the Morrissey of the last decade prefers a rather direct bluntness in his lyrics/statements – he is less concerned with the capturing the feeling of an emotion or sketching fully rendered character pieces in terms of songcraft. Some of this distinction is a subjective matter of taste –, and of course it's not without precedent in the earlier work see the aptly mentioned "Meat is Murder", or "Sorrow Will Come in the End" – but where the title track of the second album is concerned there was at least a little bit more cohesion between instrumental and vocal melody and lyrical content that makes it a memorable and moving song, as opposed to an acerbic diatribe.

Few of the observations in the later work can be classified as original or insightful- the root of the sentiments, the provenance of the ideas seems readily traceable to the kind of media and thought circles that Lucifer Sam references. Moz has always worn his influences on his sleeve, sometimes to a plagiarist degree, but the sphere of those influences seems smaller now, more concentrated and pointed. Those of us who pay pay reasonably close attention to his interviews, statements, creative work etc. can reasonably source ideas.

Anyway, thanks for having this small conversation. Reading it helped clarify some things for me

 

[The Seeker of Good Songs]

There is a line in a NEEDTOBREATHE song, "Who am I" that goes,
"You grow Your roses on my barren soul"
The context isn't the same but the meaning is:
Beauty can come from ugly.

 

[Who Rattled Your Cage]

There is a line in a NEEDTOBREATHE song, "Who am I" that goes,
"You grow Your roses on my barren soul"
The context isn't the same but the meaning is:
Beauty can come from ugly.

Who says roses are beautiful?

 

[gashonthenail]

Beauty can come from ugly.

Charles Baudelaire was saying something similar with The Flowers of Evil / Les Fleurs du Mal.

 

[gashonthenail]

Who says roses are beautiful?

Poets and song writers across time and across cultures.

 

[Who Rattled Your Cage]

Poets and song writers across time and across cultures.

They're alright if you like generic, centuries-celebrated pleasing aesthetics. Boring.

 

[DreamingofStew]

God, that sniffy English interviewer is awful. Doesn't even let the man finish a sentence without interrupting him to try and insert some poncy self-righteous moral homily.


The question of it maybe not being right to enjoy the art of a flawed artist, in an interview, or in any setting, is just a way for the interviewer to try and flaunt their own supposed moral superiority to some artist whose views or art don't coincide with their own tastes. It's absolutely fake. And disgusting, quite frankly.

Spot on. There's a factory making these invincibly supercilious people for the BBC.