Question November Spawned A Monster: Has it aged well?

[Johnny]

Have to be honest I have never ever liked this track.
It seemed like it was played at every Moz gig I ever attended.

 

[Juan Dulces]

Have to be honest I have never ever liked this track.
It seemed like it was played at every Moz gig I ever attended.

I've actually never enjoyed it much, myself. It doesn't sound as 'dated' as say 'Mind If You Forget Me', but it's up there. Plus, I never liked the female vocal in it. However, I do really like the random/abstract aspects of Morrissey's work, like the loudspeaker announcer in 'Boxers' and the audio clips from 'Heeled Jim', etc. -- but I never liked that specific part of 'November' and it turned me off of the song.

 

[j*e*t]

He sang it at London Palladium 2018 (?)
My highlight of the entire concert

So he did. That's really quite recent. I had a look on YouTube and I'm afraid it didn't do anything for me, whereas the music video still looks very fresh to my eyes.

 

[Anonbloke]

This came on in my car the other day, and I realised just how offensive it could seem when picked apart, especially nowadays. It's got a great beat and is one of Morrissey's more 'danceable/poppy/accessible' songs if that's what you're looking for. But as is often the case the music belies the darkness of the lyrics. Let's have a look:

Lines describing someone who's disabled as "twisted", a "monster" who nobody would dream of kissing even in a darkened room. Someone who's a "hostage" to the wheels of their chair, who could never be thought of in a sexual way, they're the point where horny people must "pause and draw the line". Then there's the whole weird breakdown with the noises of what can only be described as someone severely disabled receiving some sort of sexual pleasure? I cringed thinking of a person having to go into a recording booth and make those noises. Like, what did Morrissey or the producer tell them to sound like? What was the aim?

Now, to play devil's advocate: the lyrics are very clever. They're not out to offend, they merely highlight the various ways society views the disabled, and the hypocrisy of those views. It's society who label these people as "poor" (faux sympathy) but also call them "twisted" (secret disgust/bigotry). It's society who remarks behind the person's back that it's such a shame they'll never live "normal" lives, that the nearest they'll get to being loved is only in their dreams.

I don't know, I just think as far as M's lyrics being open to causing offence, this one possibly ranks way higher than the ones that actually DID cause offence, such as National Front Disco. Anyone with a brain can see the latter is just a story of a disaffected boy and the tribulations of his family who think they've 'lost' him. Ah well. Once again maybe I'm over thinking things. But in an age of wider acceptance/understanding around disability (think of the positive way we view paralympians etc) this song can either be seen as shining a light on how 'normal' people still secretly and hypocritically view the differently-abled, or it's just offensive twaddle about how someone in a wheelchair can't do sexual things or buy their own clothes, and I'm over-analysing once again.

I'll let the rest of you decide.

In response to: "Then there's the whole weird breakdown with the noises of what can only be described as someone severely disabled receiving some sort of sexual pleasure?"

That's the singer Mary Margaret O'Hara, and those kind of noises were very much a part of her act/style. So I don't think Morrissey said to her anything like: "pretend to be severely disabled whilst receiving some sort of sexual pleasure."

Some info about her here:

Cult heroes: Mary Margaret O'Hara – the genius for whom one album was enough

The Canadian’s 1988 debut Miss America is a spellbinding classic. But even as O’Hara returns to public view this year, a long-awaited follow-up looks no closer

www.theguardian.com

 

[gashonthenail]

This came on in my car the other day, and I realised just how offensive it could seem when picked apart, especially nowadays. It's got a great beat and is one of Morrissey's more 'danceable/poppy/accessible' songs if that's what you're looking for. But as is often the case the music belies the darkness of the lyrics. Let's have a look:

Lines describing someone who's disabled as "twisted", a "monster" who nobody would dream of kissing even in a darkened room. Someone who's a "hostage" to the wheels of their chair, who could never be thought of in a sexual way, they're the point where horny people must "pause and draw the line". Then there's the whole weird breakdown with the noises of what can only be described as someone severely disabled receiving some sort of sexual pleasure? I cringed thinking of a person having to go into a recording booth and make those noises. Like, what did Morrissey or the producer tell them to sound like? What was the aim?

Now, to play devil's advocate: the lyrics are very clever. They're not out to offend, they merely highlight the various ways society views the disabled, and the hypocrisy of those views. It's society who label these people as "poor" (faux sympathy) but also call them "twisted" (secret disgust/bigotry). It's society who remarks behind the person's back that it's such a shame they'll never live "normal" lives, that the nearest they'll get to being loved is only in their dreams.

I don't know, I just think as far as M's lyrics being open to causing offence, this one possibly ranks way higher than the ones that actually DID cause offence, such as National Front Disco. Anyone with a brain can see the latter is just a story of a disaffected boy and the tribulations of his family who think they've 'lost' him. Ah well. Once again maybe I'm over thinking things. But in an age of wider acceptance/understanding around disability (think of the positive way we view paralympians etc) this song can either be seen as shining a light on how 'normal' people still secretly and hypocritically view the differently-abled, or it's just offensive twaddle about how someone in a wheelchair can't do sexual things or buy their own clothes, and I'm over-analysing once again.

I'll let the rest of you decide.

The lyrics go from the second person to the first person and end in the third person - but I always heard 'poor twisted child' as going with 'hug me, hug me', so in other words she is really describing herself. The words we call ourselves are sometimes the worst of all. The imputation is that 'monster' is also a word she maybe uses to describe herself on a low day. But there is clearly something too about the words that society uses to describe disability - at least historically. I never heard the song as somehow being derogatory about disability. And I don't think anyone in a wheelchair would either.
I love the video. It's bizarre and crazy, and very camp, in a really good way.
There is an interesting take on the song in Saint Morrissey by Mark Simpson, suggesting that there was a concerted attempt to kill off Moz by the likes of the NME etc. in the year or two after this single was released because its subject matter jarred with the then current dance craze. What is true is that only Morrissey would release a single about a women in a wheelchair at the height of the greatest dance movement in the history of pop.

 

[Light Housework]

In response to: "Then there's the whole weird breakdown with the noises of what can only be described as someone severely disabled receiving some sort of sexual pleasure?"

That's the singer Mary Margaret O'Hara, and those kind of noises were very much a part of her act/style. So I don't think Morrissey said to her anything like: "pretend to be severely disabled whilst receiving some sort of sexual pleasure."

Some info about her here:

Cult heroes: Mary Margaret O'Hara – the genius for whom one album was enough

The Canadian’s 1988 debut Miss America is a spellbinding classic. But even as O’Hara returns to public view this year, a long-awaited follow-up looks no closer

www.theguardian.com

She sounds a little like Jann Arden, but not so mainstream.

 

[SuedeMoz]

Have to be honest I have never ever liked this track.
It seemed like it was played at every Moz gig I ever attended.

It was played to death, especially on the Kill Uncle and Your Arsenal tours. Never really a favorite of mine but I'd take over a song like Paris that gets overplayed now.

 

[Mike Rourke]

Admittedly, there's not a lot of competition but hard to deny it's the best riff in any Morrissey song.
Ding ding dinger dinger ding ding!

 

[Bluebirds]

She sounds a little like Jann Arden, but not so mainstream.

Miss America is a fantastic album.

 

[Bluebirds]

So he did. That's really quite recent. I had a look on YouTube and I'm afraid it didn't do anything for me, whereas the music video still looks very fresh to my eyes.

Admittedly it was the first Morrissey single I purchased (on cassette single no less) at the tender age of 15. So always a special place in my heart for this particular tune
The video was off the scale, for someone who professed to never liking music videos (during The Smiths) he did make some quite interesting video artefacts during his early solo career.
I played Hulmerist to death tbh.

 

[gashonthenail]

The extra tracks were also pretty cool. He Knows has a lovely laid back vibe and then Girl is an absolute corker. Up there as one of Moz's best ever b-sides, if that old fashioned phrase is still used.

You're just another fool with radical views...

 

[Hod]

For me it's a fantastic song, musically and lyrically one of his strongest at the time of release.

I still think it's lyrically one of his strongest, even though his catalogue is much broader now, but I would agree that the music on the recorded studio version is a little out of date. The music isn't going to attract new fans, but the lyrical content could. When he's played it live most recently, the YouTube videos I've seen sound fantastic to my ear.

Something that has caught my eye is the discussion about Mary Margaret O'Hara's beautifully-dissonant contribution. Does this remind anyone of Morrissey's own lyrical-screams in I Wish You Lonely? I get the same kind of feeling there.

 

[js138]

It's a story, a telling of ones existence and the struggles they faced. At its core, it is honesty in a unique way that only someone like Morrissey can bring into existence. Whats to be offended about? I understand this forum is for sake of discussion but damn are people hypersensitive.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

another point of view ….

For me it's a fantastic song, musically and lyrically one of his strongest at the time of release.

I still think it's lyrically one of his strongest, even though his catalogue is much broader now, but I would agree that the music on the recorded studio version is a little out of date. The music isn't going to attract new fans, but the lyrical content could. When he's played it live most recently, the YouTube videos I've seen sound fantastic to my ear.

Something that has caught my eye is the discussion about Mary Margaret O'Hara's beautifully-dissonant contribution. Does this remind anyone of Morrissey's own lyrical-screams in I Wish You Lonely? I get the same kind of feeling there.

I would point to better examples such as in the ‘breakdown’ of ‘We’ll Let You Know’ wouldn’t be surprising to find Morrissey inspired by Mary Margaret or channeling one of his first loves Patti Smith ‘Horses’ going beyond human language to pure manic emotion …

Morrissey on Mary Margaret O’Hara ..

‘In an interview published in The Face in March 1990Morrissey said: "I was massively intrigued by her album. I thought it so beautiful I suddenly realised I hadn't in a decade heard someone singing because of deep-set personal neurosis, absolute need and desperation. You'd think she might fall apart at any second and become a pile of rags and bones on stage. For the first time in almost a decade I was 'high' - mentally really, really high. What kept coming back to me was 'Horses'."

Morrissey under the influence: music

 

[BrokenFrame]

When I first discovered "November spawned a monster" it was already an old song. As someone classified as having a disability it really spoke to me. For me, whatever music trends come and go, this will always be a classic.

 

[gashonthenail]

I love this line when Moz spoke about working with Mary Margaret O'Hara in an interview:

She's the oddest, most eccentric person I've ever met, I went into the vocal booth and said 'Just simply give birth', which she most expertly did, while I stood behind with a mop and a bucket.

Vox – November 1990

“Morrissey interview by Len Brown titled “Bona Contention”. Cover (“November Spawned A Mozzer”) and inside photos by Kevin Cummins and Pennie Smith. Topics: backlash, …

illnessasart.com

 

[Vesper Nocturne]

BEST. There was nothing ever like it before or since, and there won’t ever be. This song was/is spectacular.

 

[marred]

Love it. It hasn't dated musically or lyrically. Anything else I can help you all with don't hesitate to ask.

ps: It was also November Spawned A Monster that was playing live when I first reached out my hand from the front row and Morrissey shook it way back in 2002 when we were all a lot younger.