Talk:Morrissey Live
Trying to come up with a format for shows. I figure off the tour detail page we should have a link for the date. This should allow one for the venue if people make a page for that. It makes the heading of the page look odd so I'll see if I can change that somehow. To start the show page I started with Venue and then Set List under that. The set list is linked to each song as well. After that I assume show notes will come. Finally, links to commercial bootlegs with info that pertains to the show and the bootleg. Seem reasonable? -MR
Davidt: Yes that sounds reasonable. Maybe a new column 'info' and perhaps another column 'audio'?
I was thinking info would point to the 'post-show' links that are on the Morrissey-solo tour pages, that would cover shows going back to 1997. There are set lists and concert summaries / photos / videos / reviews already. A drawback is the info is not in the wiki, so songs won't be linked.
http://www.morrissey-solo.com/content/340-Morrissey-Tour-2011-Info
Take a look at the MuseWiki tour page for filename / page conventions to follow. We don't need to follow it exactly, if you think there are better ways of doing things by all means try it out / experiment.
http://www.musewiki.org/Gigs,_2009%E2%80%932011#2011
http://www.musewiki.org/Newark_Prudential_Center_2010_(gig)
Before filling out too many details, let's get the format to a point we are satisfied with.
Yeah, that's why I figured I'd just do the one :D. If I can get the format down hopefully I can script this and go from raw data to formatted page and upload a ton of stuff in a short amount of time. I also didn't realize that the Musewiki was an actual band thing so I'll definitely check out the format for that. I also started poking around other stuff here too. I was going to try taking the song detail box like at Disappointed. I was going to link the M-S post show threads from there. That's going to be tonights work. I'll also add the Contents box that's there. Maybe in a day or two we have a format we like and I can start working on the scripting.
Cool, glad we're on the same page. MuseWiki has a template for the tour info page which we can use / modify. I think it's similar to the song detail box. No time stress on filling out the data but if you have it to upload that's great. This will probably be a big work in progress for years to come. Viva hate may have some data and some ideas on the formatting.
Instead of 1991-05-01 as the page title, something more descriptive would be better. Perhaps something like "Tour_{date}_{city / festival}"? for ex. "Tour_1991-05-01_Utrecht". Perhaps also indicate The Smiths or Morrissey?
Ok cool. I see how to create a useful page title off a different link now. I'd like to make a suggestion though. For songs linked from live shows I think the Muse format of SONGNAME_(song) is a bit cleaner. Then you would have something like SUEDEHEAD_(single) page and SUEDEHEAD_(song). It'll standardize the links in the Shows pages without having to remember which songs had a single released.
davidt: Viva Hate originally entered the title of the song as the wiki title and we discussed the song naming convention, I think the template added the (single) text automatically. Originally I did think following the Muse format would be best, with the added (song) for clarity but now I think it's actually cleaner the way we have it. For the set lists or other places songs are listed, instead of having to remove (song) from the display, it's easier to list all the songs and remove (single) from display and add it to the link when necessary. Alternatively, we could also add redirects for the singles. I'll go ahead and add an example now. Thanks for the suggestion, let me know if that logic doesn't make sense.
I just changed updated the tour date wiki page name with more details: Utrecht,_Holland_1991-05-01_(Morrissey_concert)
<hr\> Please look at the first show of the 1991 tour and give me feedback on siting set list to PJLM.
<hr\>
DT: Thanks MR, looks good!
<hr\> MR: OK, I'll fix the current shows before adding new ones. It's pretty easy to add that to my scripted stuff.
MR: 1991 done but took much longer than expected. Going to move to a tour that has M-S content next. But going to pick a short one lol
DT: thanks MR, loks good. I know doing these pages right with proper credits will take a bit of work. But once it's done, it will be set for years, or decades, or longer :-)
MR: Want to suggest a few changes that will make it easier on my input but not sure if you'll agree with the stylistic implications, so please let me know. These would all be reflected in the Related Items section of a show:
Change the venue info from <City>, <Country> - <Venue> to <Venue>, <City>, <Country> This is the same format as the information at the top of a show page. Change date format from <MM DD, YYYY> to <YYYY-MM-DD> This is the same format as information listed on the tour leg page.
So for Perth, the link back to M-S post show becomes:
Perth Concert Hall, Perth, Scotland (2011-06-15) post-show - Morrissey-solo
This makes it much easier for me to semi-automate the data input.
DT: That's great. Sure, you can change the format, usually I just use the title of the link but the new format is clear also. That's cool you have some scripts / automation.
MR: I'm spending quite a bit of time digging out the specific post from M-S where users post the set lists. Is this what you'd like me to do or is a link to the post show page and the users name sufficient? Either way is fine with me, I just wanted to ask.
DT: Yes, that must be a little tedious. Since the details are in the post-show link, don't worry about a link to the actual source, the credit is fine. If you want to leave it generic to save some time I or someone else can even go in later and add the credit. Thanks!
MR: Ok, 2011 tour is done. Think I'll work on filling out the tour legs for every year next. When are you looking to publish this anyway?
DT: Thanks MR, awesome job! From the main wiki page there is a link to the to-do list: Morrissey-solo_Wiki:To_Do where I have a tentative target release date of Aug. 27. This can be adjusted. On your end is it ready to go? If you are still filling out info after release that is fine - it will give an example to others to see how pages are updated. I think in the next year or two there will likely be a lot of frequent updates. I just started going through the site history for content and have only gotten through the first year.
MR: Seems good to me. If you're happy with the output format so far then that means your templates are good to go. I'd like to complete the data for the tour years before it goes up but 8/27 gives more than enough time for that.
MR: There are 3 shows in Feb 2007 (1-3). They're a few months before the Greatest Hits Tour starts (4/27) and a month after the Tormentors tour ends (12/23). Which tour would you like those shows with? --Answer, never mind. Did some research of TTY and the presale password for the Feb gigs is Ringleader and the password changes to GREATESTHITS for the others. So they go on the end of the Tormentors tour.
DT: Thanks, makes sense. I noticed on a new date the US state abbreviated, for ex. Los Angeles, CA. In the previous dates the state was spelled out. Best to be consistent, I'm fine with either one. On the post-show articles I abbreviate the state.
MR: Figure it's easier for non-US folks if the state names are full. All the new pages are updated for that now.
DT: Looking good.
MR:Just 92, 95 and 2012 left. Should get to those and maybe The Smiths tomorrow. I'll probably clean up the band lineups for the tours and then take a bit of a break and think about what to do with the bootleg section. It's a bit of a mess right now.
MR: Morrissey tour legs are done. Band info needs to be updated to match Viva's info. There's also radio and tv performances to do. I'm going to move on to The Smiths tour legs now.
MR: ugh.... so I changed the way the references look across everything I've done. Rather than have a "provided by blah" with link to the references and notes, I just used the numbers next to Set List or after the Concert Notes/Live Recordings sections. It looks a lot cleaner and seems to match what wikipedia does. You can check the 12/22/88, 5/1/91 and 10/4/91 pages and give me your feedback.
- I've also realized that there aren't "headers" at the top of the Morrissey concert pages. I'm going to call this an oversight. I included one in the Smiths section and you can look at 12/7/83 to see how it looks. I think I prefer it. So now that I went back and changed all the references for the '91 and '11 tours I think I need to go back again to add the header to them all. I'll do a few of the first '91 shows today so you can approve or not and then I'll do the rest tomorrow.
- Also added venue info in format of Venue, City, Country. This should help when multiple venues use the same name (aka Fox Theater).
- I also changed the way recordings are shown in the shows pages. the '91 shows from above show the detail. In short. There's a Live section which is broken out into Unofficial and Official releases.
DT: I think I've seen all the changes on the concert pages you mentioned and they all make sense to me. Nice job! The header box is good, we can then get rid of the venue section which didn't contain very much. If you don't have time to add these we can add it to the 'to-do' list and tackle them later. Thanks!
Just saw note about keeping the venue section in case anyone has anything to add. In doing the tour summaries over the years I haven't had much interesting info about the venues added. If there is, I think they can just add them to the notes or references section.
MR: For Venue, I thought it would be cool to come up with a way to figure out how many times he'd played at certain venues and then link back to the shows. That was the only real reason I put that in. I can easily remove it if you like though, just thought it'd be fun to get it prep'd in case we could get to it in the future.
DT: A venue count or 'songs played live' count would be cool but I haven't seen if there is programmatic way of doing it. I think including it in the info box would be similar and remove some redundancy and the set list section would become more visible.
MR: Agreed. Will do.
DT: Adding a venue page may be a hacky way to see the venue count. I created Assembly Rooms as an example:
http://www.morrissey-solo.com/wiki/Assembly_Rooms,_Derby,_England
On the left menu click 'What links here' and you will see the tour pages (and other pages) that link to it.
MR: Yeah, when I look at this and then what you've done with the album/tour templates I get the sense that it can be done. We just need to dive into the code a bit to figure it out. All the info is there, just like setlist.fm. I'd be surprised if we can't get at it. Still, longer term goal that will be fun to see if we can pull off, eventually.
DT: Agreed - this is a powerful tool we have and we are only limited by what is imagined. It shouldn't be that difficult to get a total count of the links to the page and then filter for the word 'Concert'. It may be a bit tricky to pull it all together but mediawiki has an API that may help which I haven't looked into yet. Anyway, I'll flag it for later in the 'to-do' list.
MR: I've created an example of navigating between shows on Santiago,_Chile_2012-02-26_(Morrissey_concert). Feed back would be appreciated. If approved I'll make it a template next.
MR: all set lists compete
MR: After seeing all this in action, I think I made one huge mistake. The format of each concert page is has the location first and the date second. It should be dat first ans city second. You can see the result of the error when you look at the play count for songs. They're listed in alphabetical order of the cities and not date of the show. That's not a useful order. I'm thinking of trying to make the effort to fix it before this gets bigger. Thoughts?
DT: Since I implemented the semantic wiki info later we wouldn't have known how it would be sorted. At this point I don't think it's worth the effort to change every tour date as that could cause other issues and the gain isn't that huge. Some people may actually prefer that it's sorted by city.