Talk:Hatful Of Hollow

Hatful charted at number 7 in the main charts the week ending Nov 24, 1984.
That wouldn't be based on 22 day's worth of sales.
That puts it at a later date than Friday 2nd.
Going through every week of Record Mirror, Hatful is next mentioned via chart placement.
PJLM (which I loath relying on) notes the LP and tape came out on different dates - my diary at the time agrees.
Namely:
"UK LP and cassette: 12/16 November 1984"
Monday releases were commonplace.
Not so sure about Friday ones though...
Rogan states it was "rush released" by Rough Trade on the 12th - which is an odd thing to misremember.

Record Mirror:

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This needs discussion rather than reverts like the external wiki.
I think the Record Mirror charting information is possibly a better source than the one referenced??
FWD.

The November 03 edition of the magazine had zero reference to the album or The Smiths
The November 10 edition of the magazine album itself carried a review of the album.
The November 10 edition carried a W.H. Smith's hit list citing Hatful as a "this weeks new releases" - again this is later than the previous Friday.
(saying this week's.. would put it at the 5th, but the magazine was out 6 days later on a Saturday - so is likely to mean the following week?)
The November 17 edition - nothing.
The November 24 edition has the first week in chart info above.
The December 01 edition has the UK charts showing the album had been there 2 weeks and now moved to number 11.

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DT: Thanks for posting the info. I agree the charts line up for the later release date. Record Mirror may not be the best authority for release dates and isn't the end-all reference.

In the Hatful debut chart Duran Duran's "Arena" is released the same week. Looking that up it's stated as November 12, 1984.

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It’s not just the Record Mirror that indicates a non-12th release. Music Week listed HoH in their New Release section of their November 3rd issue. In the late 80s and early 90s an appearance in this New Releases section of Music Week indicated a Monday-after-publication-date (bank holidays excepted). Before the late 80s, though, the U.K. Release day-of-week was fairly well divided between Fridays and Mondays. This is why it’s still reasonable for the New Releases section of the November 3rd issue of Music Week to be referring both to the previous Friday as well as to the following Monday.

While helpful, chart entry data cannot be taken as conclusive proof of anything except that an album had definitely been released by that entry date.

Not that I trust the BPI award site any more than other non-contemporaneous sources, it is curious that they have the release date as November 16 (also a Friday).

As for “this week” my experience has borne out that when Brits wrote “this week” in 80s music magazines, they were talking about the week that had just been—and not about the week to come. Alainsane (talk) 23:57, 14 November 2024 (PST)Alainsane

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Reviews in 1980s U.K. music magazines have (in my concerted survey of their content for all music in my realm of interest—not just The Smiths) normally followed album releases—not preceded them. fwiw Alainsane (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2024 (PST)

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DT:

Why would the chart data not be the proof? Doesn't seem fair that Hatful would have 10 extra days of sales if was actually released on Nov. 2 compared to other releases on Nov 12 such as Duran Duran's.

If it was released on Nov. 2 I think it would have appeared in the previous Nov. 10 - Nov. 16 chart:

https://www.officialcharts.com/charts/albums-chart/19841111/7502/

Here new releases #3 Alison Moyet "Alf", #8 Marillion "Real To Real", #14 Stranglers "Aural Sculpture" all have designated release dates Nov. 5, 1984.

To me the Music Week article is likely inaccurate, perhaps there was a delay in release as that does happen also. Do you have a scan of the Music Week article?

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DT: Thanks to FWD for the link to Music Week scans:

https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Music-Week/1984/

I saw a mention in the Oct 20 issue. A Nov. 7 date mentioned and "Nowhere Fast" being the next single, so I don't think Music Week is the most reliable as a reference.

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FWD:

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Above is from Music Week November 24, 1984 edition. It was trade only and a lot of it was pre-sale enticing of shopkeepers. I occasionally swiped one myself. Amazing social history documents now, but they share the same chart information as Record Mirror.

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DT: I'm thinking the chart info is probably a more accurate indicator than the Record Mirror or Music Week articles, those rules are more strict. If it were actually released on Nov. 2, sales would have registered the next several days and it would have charted in the previous week as a new entry. Since it's a Top 10 record there would have been sales on those few days, it's not like they weren't known at the time. If you're going by articles posting dates I'd say that Nov. 7 Music Week date is more accurate than Nov. 2 Record Mirror.

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FWD: Personally, I believe it came out on Monday the 12th, then tape came out on the 16th and from there, add in sales for the following week (18-24 running from Sunday 18->Saturday24th which is how the calendar operated for charts and magazines), to the 12-16th sales = it charting at #7 on the week ending Nov 28 - as evidenced by both magazine's chart information (which is third party - so better placed to be accurate) Propose to return to 12th with information stating it is disputed. Warner's relying on the information is a further bit of evidence for myself, as they exist outside of the Morrissey anniversary bubble.

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DT: Agreed, revert to Nov. 12 I think is the best and lines up with this chart evidence we have posted here. The Nov. 2 and Nov. 7 dates we have documented as mentioned by publications but I don't see any actual evidence it was released on either of those dates.

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FWD: Perhaps more evidence:
Melody Maker – 17 November 1984
https://illnessasart.com/2020/01/18/melody-maker-17-november-1984/
NME – 17 November 1984
https://illnessasart.com/2020/01/18/nme-17-november-1984/
Both printed Saturday 17th - so wouldn't be capturing something from 15 days prior. Would have expected the album to feature in their issues of the 3rd or 10th if released on the 2nd.

Alf by Allison Moyet, Real To Reel by Marillion, Arena by Duran Duran, and Aural Sculpture by The Stranglers were all released by two major music labels: CBS and EMI. Hatful Of Hollow was a midline release of mostly previously released material by a still (then) relatively unknown band signed to...Rough Trade, whose distribution apparatus was something called "The Cartel." I am highly skeptical that the distribution, sales, sales reporting tools, and media synergies of an organization which sprung up near the start of The Smiths' tenure as a band were on par with those of music companies that had been in existence since the inception of retail music sales. Maybe these large infrastructural differences have something to do with the late appearance of the album on these charts? Also, maybe y'all could use the quad-tilda's to date and differentiate your posts from one another and to illuminate how many different users are contributing? Alainsane (talk) 15:36, 14 December 2024 (PST)

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DT: Not familiar with quad tilda. We haven't used discussion on the wiki much, we can just use the forum normally. If there is no 'official' release date and we have seen proof that press articles are inaccurate, chart data is best to go with. Even though it is 'not a major', it was top 10 so I don't think the release date can just be assigned and count two weeks of sales as one.